Discussion in 'Fantasy Matchup Discussion' started by frye666, Jul 25, 2019.
If you buy UFC spiel then the longer your a fan the less you'll actually know.
DC would either grind him out on the ground or Fedor would get an arm bar. Fedor wasn't super difficult to take down but was dangerous off his back and with his sweeps. Pick em fight I'd say.
Current cage and unified rules settings have a siginificant impact on that.
Set a fight in the ring, no elbows, 10 minute round, no wire
fence = freedom of movement - can't imobilize opponent, GI allowed, and you will see submission BJJ - judo experts significanty more successful in MMA and you will se a lot more submissions and submission attempts.
It is much easier to controll arms of opponent if the danger comes only form fists.
Nowdays in cage nobody even wants to stay on the bottom because you will get your face cutt and carved bloody by cheap and easy elbows.
So it is more a matter of rules and environmnet than evolution.
That's part of it but no one has that skill set anymore at HW. If you look at the top 15 in the UFC none of them are close to as good off their backs as the 4 guys mentioned previously and Werdum was able to use his ground game off his back to beat very good fighters in cages with North American rules(Fedor, Cain, Walt Harris).
Watch some more MMA she sport has evolved lol.
Watch some more MMA rhe sport has evolved. Fedor could not keep up.
To be fair though, besides Nog and Fedor, what submission aces did Coleman really fight? I mean the best I can figure is Allan Goes, but obviously Goes didn't get a chance to work any submissions, he got sprawled on and kneed into oblivion. So I mean when your resume includes guys like Igor Vov, Shoji, Fujita, Don Frye, etc, it's no great feather in his cap to say he wasn't submitted by anyone other than Nog or Fedor.
I agree that Fedor is likely the better range striker, I just see DC closing the distance and being very effective with his clinch striking and grappling, as well as his top control. Fedor's GnP is legendary, but I don't see him getting top advantage on DC, who clearly isn't as clueless as a guy like Randleman (RIP) was with BJJ and would be unlikely IMO to get swept or reversed.
For me, Fedor needs to land a KO punch to win (which is entirely possible), while I could see DC winning by KO or by outfighting him to a decision. Obviously it's all hypothetical but I would have no reservations putting my money on DC here.
Strictly submission artists would be Allen Goes who's a 6th degree black belt, but he also fought Shogun who's more known for his sweeps on the ground and Morais who's more of a BJJ guy and Igor who was more of a striker but had a good sub game off his back.
I don't think Fedor would need to finish to win, and his clinch game was much better in his prime as was his ground game(as he aged he really fell off in terms of his clinch and ground game). I still think Fedor had the best striking to clinch entries i've seen at HW but he typically didn't stay in the clinch a long time and work people from it like DC likes to.
I think the fight would be great if there were some sort of time machine to have them fight prime vs prime but I think the main factor that would determine the fight would be the clinch game and if DC can do enough in the clinch to win. I don't think he would but it wouldn't surprise me if he did.
LMAO at HW being more evolved now than during the mid 2000s, the submission game is practically nonexistent and the only guy that has a good submission game is super nonathletic, old and has no striking game.
But as I mentioned, Goes never had a chance to work any ground game, and neither did Shogun. Morais only had one submission in his career (not off his back) and it terms of Igor having a good sub game off his back... I don't know where that's coming from. I can't even recall Igor ever attempting a sub off his back lol
I mean I have no problem with you or anyone else thinking Fedor beats DC, he very well could, but I think we're getting a little ridiculous here listing Igor as a threat off his back lol
Most of Igor's subs were heelhooks and guillotines, I was probably thinking more of his sweeps but I do think most of his subs came from when he was on his back. I think Coleman's submission game is underrated(mainly stemming from training with Randleman who had bad sub defense) but it's hard to get an accurate rating of how good it really was. I think his submission defense was most definitely above average but clearly not elite.
DC I would think would have very good sub defense but he's never really ever had it tested(even less than Coleman).
I think it's very hard to say who would win this fight. So Id just go who has the ability to control the fight and who has the higher fight iq. To me that's DC all day. I think DC's fight iq is the reason he's still one of the best to this day at 40 despite being clearly out of his physical prime. Guys like CroCop and Fedor look liked shit as soon as their physical attributes slightly declined.
I would not put anyone above Prime Fedor for fight IQ, he had the best natural instincts and reaction time I've ever seen. DC does have the advantage in controlling where the fight takes place but the only area I think he has the advantage is the clinch.
DC didn't fight till he was 30, he didn't take nearly as much wear and tear as guys like Fedor and Cro Cop did. If DC started at the same age as them and fought as much he would have declined much younger.
Without a cage, DC wouldn't take Fedor down to start with
Yeah the clinch that he's been able to initiate on every fighter hes ever fought. I don't think would have a problem taking Fedor down out of the clinch. That being said, I don't see DC doing anything with the takedowns and he probably be pretty conservative.
I definitely think DC has the higher fight IQ. Natural instincts and reaction isn't what im talking about. I'm Ialking about gameplaning, manipulating his opponents, setting traps,taking away his opponents strengths. DC was doing those things in his prime and he's doing them at 40.
To be fair the Goes fight didn't go quite as people remember, Coleman didn't just blast him with knees but rather kept control after the stuffed takedown and worked him with hard GnP before switching to knees to finish. If Coleman was that clueless Goes should have been able to do something from that position. Elsewhere I wouldn't dismiss Don Frye's submission ability, that was how he was picking up a good amount of his wins and he couldn't do anything to Coleman. Pete Williams as well whilst he outlasted Coleman couldn't really do anything much on the ground but stall.
Again I think just how good Cormiers defence is would be questionable because it simply hasn't been tested very much, he spent awhile on the ground with Barnett but Josh isn't really known for a threat off of his back. Without knowing that the whole fight is a massive unknown for me.
I would say as well a potentially big issue is cardio as well, Fedor simply won't let someone fight at a slow pace against him, even if they have top control he'll be looking for escapes and forcing them to work. if DC has to work at that kind of pace for 10+ mins I suspect cardio will start to become an issue and if I picked a result it would be Fedor via GnP or RNC latter in the fight.
I'm talking about the same thing. I think Fedor is better than DC in that area(in their primes), it's just we haven't seen DC dramatically decline cause he's only been fighting for 10 years.
Have you never seen DC fight? The ring isn't some magically immunity from a wrestler of this caliber.
I don’t think DC’s sub defense is better. I think it is not as good due to lack of submission artists he has faced. He kept Mir standing. He kept Jones & Bigfoot primarily standing. Same with Big Country & Barnett. We haven’t seen him defend multiple submission attempts on the ground from a high level grappler like Big Nog vs Fedor.
I've never seen DC fight in a ring lol
The cage was not Fedor's friend though
Dude DC has declined drastically physically. He can no longer take guys down at will. He doesn't move well. He's evolved his clinch game to counter that. These days he has to play a dangerous game to initiate his clinch. Against Stipe he was using that mummy guard defense and literally staying in Miocic punching range to grab the tie collar mid combo. It's dangerous but every fight you see him make adjustments stay at the level he's at and competee. Fedor turned into some bar room brawler and everybody like "oh well he's out of his prime" despite taking little damage during his time in pride.
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