International SMIC’s 7-nm chip process a wake-up call for US

[Ayin]

So, it looks like China has found a way to mitigate some of the damage from the West's embargo on chip making technology. They have managed to create chips at the 7-nm level, which was thought impossible without the most advanced manufacturing methods. You may remember that Trump instituted a ban on the most advanced chip manufacturing technology to China. The problem is that this may have been too little, too late.



China is still using "Deep Ultra-Violet (DUV) lithography," having been denied access to "Extreme Ultra-Violet (EUV) lithography-based processes now used by TSMC and Samsung, by the West." This was thought to deny them the ability to make sub-10-nm chips, but they have found a way to get down to 7-nm.



The U.S. is now trying to institute a full ban on all D.U.V. technology, thus cutting China completely off from Western manufacturing tech.



This will limit China's ability to produce anything smaller than 7-nm. The most advanced devices use 3 and 5-nm chips.



While recent sanctions have targeted S.M.I.C., some say more should have been done earlier, as they are now a powerful player in the market, ranking "fifth in the world in terms of semiconductor foundry revenues."

Source.

So, TLDR, it looks like China has found a way to sidestep some of the limitations from not having the most advanced chip fabrication technology. I have read about this issue for a few years now, with the arguments focusing on the need for revenue of the chip fab companies balanced against the need to retard their chip fab tech growth. What does Sherdog think about this development?

As soon as I started this I thought “don’t worry, if China needs something, Canada will find a way to “lose” it to them”.

And then I read the first section. Man, we are GREAT allies of the Chinese

 

[Deorum]

Lol you can’t take china anywhere. honestly I figured with enough tech they could have made it without blatant dishonesty

Yea even if they'd pulled it off genuinely, they're still reliant on foreign capital equipment and software, lol. I wonder whose DUV lithography tech SMIC used to actually manufacture the chips. ASML (deservedly) gets all of the hype for being one of the most innovative corporations on the planet with its EUV/High NA but Canon and Nikon also produce DUV machines.

 

[SandisLL]

Are you trying to claim there isn't much progress because your old CPU ran at 850mhz and new processors run at 1600mhz?

Cos I see TASK done as criteria!
The same task!

And if the same task had been done with 850 MHz 32 bit SINGLE core processor....AND now I use 64 bit processor with 4 cores (!) to do THE SAME TASK....

I don't see progress IN THIS example ....

+ I don't feel neccessity to " try claim something ".

Even 32 bit 850 MHz processor with single core had monster's processing power if compare with ....processor used in SAM systems in 1991-2001 th...

Sorry.
Arch and solutions matters more than nm race and number of cores + platform speed....

 

[jefferz]

Cos I see TASK done as criteria!
The same task!

And if the same task had been done with 850 MHz 32 bit SINGLE core processor....AND now I use 64 bit processor with 4 cores (!) to do THE SAME TASK....

I don't see progress IN THIS example ....

+ I don't feel neccessity to " try claim something ".

Even 32 bit 850 MHz processor with single core had monster's processing power if compare with ....processor used in SAM systems in 1991-2001 th...

Sorry.
Arch and solutions matters more than nm race and number of cores + platform speed....

 

[SandisLL]

You might laugh about old mans here.
Sorry, code monkeys too usually doesn't have any clue nor about code effectivity nor chips nor software architecture.

Therefore there are miltiple cores, consumers and code monkeys...
BTW for a reason because client needs to have his product delivered ASAP...
&
While the same your payroll had been done in time in 1980 th and is done today too.

Ohh, yeah, then was without using libs created by students in bunches and advisors in India etc....

 

[Deorum]

As soon as I started this I thought “don’t worry, if China needs something, Canada will find a way to “lose” it to them”.

And then I read the first section. Man, we are GREAT allies of the Chinese

Canadian cuckery is a liability, especially given how integrated it is with America's defense industrial base.

 

[Prutfis]

You might laugh about old mans here.
Sorry, code monkeys too usually doesn't have any clue nor about code effectivity nor chips nor software architecture.

Therefore there are miltiple cores, consumers and code monkeys...
BTW for a reason because client needs to have his product delivered ASAP...
&
While the same your payroll had been done in time in 1980 th and is done today too.

Ohh, yeah, then was without using libs created by students in bunches and advisors in India etc....

You dont know what the fuck you are talking about

 

[Deorum]

Lol you can’t take china anywhere

This was a great win for Intel's fledging foundry arm, at this juncture establishing partnerships is no less important than the actual scale of order size and it'll pay off massively in the near future. MediaTek is sort of "under the radar" but they really shouldn't be, it's a fabless Taiwan firm (polar opposite of TSMC's business) that has worked its way into the top 10 in terms of revenue.




This is Intel's separate side-arm business in addition to their own in-house chip production that just launched last year (March 2021) when Gelsinger was made chief executive. The two additional fabs being built at their (massive) Ocotillo AZ campus will be for foundry capacity. They really aren't going down without a fight, way too much prestige and pride.

 

[Deorum]

Wow an actually intellectually stimulating thread in the WR? Never thought I’d see the day.

It's a relatively spastic-proof subject.

 

[ElKarlo]

This was a great win for Intel's fledging foundry arm, at this juncture establishing partnerships is no less important than the actual scale of order size and it'll pay off massively in the near future. MediaTek is sort of "under the radar" but they really shouldn't be, it's a fabless Taiwan firm (polar opposite of TSMC's business) that has worked its way into the top 10 in terms of revenue.




This is Intel's separate side-arm business in addition to their own in-house chip production that just launched last year (March 2021) when Gelsinger was made chief executive. The two additional fabs being built at their (massive) Ocotillo AZ campus will be for foundry capacity. They really aren't going down without a fight, way too much prestige and pride.

Wow that Is interesting. They def need the volume to compete with TSMC and Samsung. I would love to see intel really push it and go for volume on top of quality. They are perfectly capable of it, and now with the new CEO they have the direction and drive to do so. I listen to a person on Bloomberg maybe, who said buying until now might be like buying Microsoft in 2012 when Steve Ballmer just step down.

 

[ElKarlo]

Yea even if they'd pulled it off genuinely, they're still reliant on foreign capital equipment and software, lol. I wonder whose DUV lithography tech SMIC used to actually manufacture the chips. ASML (deservedly) gets all of the hype for being one of the most innovative corporations on the planet with its EUV/High NA but Canon and Nikon also produce DUV machines.

Yeah that is a good question. Wonder if they were sold some DUVs in secret? Hong Kong When it was British used to be a big part of how China got technology, things like jet engines and manufacturing machines or smuggled into China via Hong Kong. Of course the Hong Kong Titans are more than happy to sell China the prohibited items. Since there’s only so many people and companies that can make machines that can make semiconductor machines, it’s limited to a small group so would be interesting if a internet detective went deep into this

 

[Karl_Hungus]

Interesting. They did something like this in 07 iirc. They wanted to make a ball point pen without stealing the tech from Japan. They threw tons of money and resonances at it and it worked out. They learned from that and have applied that to semiconductors. Too bad it’s too late to stop china now

I remember that, and I think that is the crux of the issue here. This article appears to illustrate just another example of the Chinese adapting to technology transfer blocks with sheer determination of will. They are trying to do the same thing with jet engines. Some say they are very close, as they have a new engine for their jets, but it hasn't been proven, yet. We should have never allowed our businesses to pick up and move to China, and transfer all that technology. That was really dumb, and history books will note that as the beginning of the end for America, along with Nixon taking us off the gold standard.

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/taiwans-importance-cant-be-overstated-or-can-it.4240986/

(second post)

Also feel free to chime in on the primary geopolitical aspects of that thread. You have some interesting views on that front -- I don't always or fully agree to say the least, but I respect them.



Surprise! <45>

China's SMIC Shipping 7nm Chips, Reportedly Copied TSMC's Tech

According to analyst firm TechInsights, Chinese foundry SMIC has been producing chips based on its 7nm process node for a Bitcoin Miner SoC, and they've been shipping since July of 2021 (h/t to SemiAnalysis). TechInsights has reverse-engineered the chip, saying the "initial images suggest it is a close copy of TSMC 7nm process technology," a telling discovery after Taiwan-based TSMC has sued SMIC twice in the past for copying its tech. The discovery comes as China continues to build out its own homegrown semiconductor production, with the heavily-sanctioned SMIC leading the way. Meanwhile, the US government is on the cusp of approving large subsidies for US-based chipmakers.

The TechInsights report says that TSMC, Samsung, and Intel have all developed far more sophisticated technology than SMIC's 7nm and are at least two nodes ahead. Regardless, the significance of SMIC shipping its 7nm process can't be overstated — SMIC has been heavily sanctioned by the US government, restricting its access to advanced EUV chipmaking tools. However, the firm can obviously use its existing tools to produce 7nm chips (and possibly smaller), albeit with less desirable economics and yield. Those cost factors are hardly a concern for China as it seeks technological independence from Western countries by developing its own supply of indigenously-produced chips.

I appreciate your positive feedback. I try to be fair and logical in discussion. I don't know that I have much to add to that thread, but I will try.

This was a great win for Intel's fledging foundry arm, at this juncture establishing partnerships is no less important than the actual scale of order size and it'll pay off massively in the near future. MediaTek is sort of "under the radar" but they really shouldn't be, it's a fabless Taiwan firm (polar opposite of TSMC's business) that has worked its way into the top 10 in terms of revenue.




This is Intel's separate side-arm business in addition to their own in-house chip production that just launched last year (March 2021) when Gelsinger was made chief executive. The two additional fabs being built at their (massive) Ocotillo AZ campus will be for foundry capacity. They really aren't going down without a fight, way too much prestige and pride.

I have read a little about this. Seems like a good idea. Thanks for adding the info to the thread.

 

[SandisLL]

You dont know what the fuck you are talking about

Sadly for you most likely I know more than you might imagine...........despite your own dreams about this topic.

Yeah, there are applications .....where a lot of cores and huge number of transistors etc is very important thing....

While you like mainstream ppl are thinking that just more cores and transistors might solve everything in this world.

It isn't like this for real life...

For example your salary is calculated with a glance....
Yeah...you might insist about .......modern buzzwords and other stuff....

While in reality nothing better than stuff called COBOL and FORTRAN + C ....had not been created....
To write OS, use for meteo stuff and to calculate your salary....
For these applications.
Even C++ is high level language...
__
And if you will insist that you need multicore x GHz chip manufactured with 7 nm tech for manpad.....
with soft running on JVM.... vuala, they will sent you to see doctor....