International SMIC’s 7-nm chip process a wake-up call for US

Karl_Hungus

Banned
Banned
Joined
Jun 17, 2021
Messages
5,565
Reaction score
14,179
Reports of a China chip-making breakthrough are behind the curve but US sanctions are increasingly too little, too late and out of date

Lithography-Photoresists-Chips-Fabrication.jpg


So, it looks like China has found a way to mitigate some of the damage from the West's embargo on chip making technology. They have managed to create chips at the 7-nm level, which was thought impossible without the most advanced manufacturing methods. You may remember that Trump instituted a ban on the most advanced chip manufacturing technology to China. The problem is that this may have been too little, too late.

A TechInsights report stating that a bitcoin mining integrated circuit (IC) sold by MinerVa “appears to be manufactured in SMIC 7-nm technology node” has triggered an outburst of commentary about the failure of American sanctions to stop the advance of Chinese semiconductor technology.

TechInsights is a Canadian provider of semiconductor-related analysis and intellectual property services to technology companies and other subscribers. It is known for its reverse engineering capability.

Referred to as “China-based” by Bloomberg, MinerVa Semiconductor is registered in Canada. But the three directors listed in its registration are Chinese and the address given for one of them is in China’s Henan province. The “About Us” section on the company’s website is blank.

MinerVA Semiconductor claims that its MinerVa7 is “one of the best-valued chips” for mining Bitcoin and that it “utilizes mature foundry technology to ensure chip yield, quality and reliability.”

Semiconductor Manufacturing International Corp, or SMIC, is China’s largest semiconductor foundry (contract manufacturer) and a prominent target of US technology sanctions aimed at curbing China’s access to advanced chips and the capacity to produce them.

The report describes SMIC’s efforts to put 7-nm process technology into production as a qualified success. After noting similarities with Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company’s (TSMC) 7-nm process, it goes on to say that SMIC’s System-on-Chip (SoC) device seems to be a low-volume “steppingstone” that has the logic but not the memory aspects of a standard TSMC or Samsung product.

This is possible because “bitcoin miners have limited RAM [random access memory] requirements,” the report said. For reference, an SoC is an IC that incorporates a processing unit (logic), memory and other components, creating a specialized computer or other type of electronic system in a single device.

China is still using "Deep Ultra-Violet (DUV) lithography," having been denied access to "Extreme Ultra-Violet (EUV) lithography-based processes now used by TSMC and Samsung, by the West." This was thought to deny them the ability to make sub-10-nm chips, but they have found a way to get down to 7-nm.

TechInsights also points out that SMIC’s use of Deep Ultra-Violet (DUV) lithography has resulted in a more complex and costly process that probably has lower yields than the Extreme Ultra-Violet (EUV) lithography-based processes now used by TSMC and Samsung.

But SMIC has no choice. It must use DUV because the US Commerce Department put in on its Entity List in December 2020, stating at the time that “Items uniquely required to produce semiconductors at advanced technology nodes – 10 nanometers or below – will be subject to a presumption of denial to prevent such key enabling technology from supporting China’s military-civil fusion efforts.”

The U.S. is now trying to institute a full ban on all D.U.V. technology, thus cutting China completely off from Western manufacturing tech.

The Entity List restricts trade with foreign entities – persons, corporations, governments – without a license from the Commerce Department. In practice, this has meant that sales of EUV lithography equipment to SMIC and other Chinese semiconductor makers are banned. Sales of other types of equipment – quite a lot of it, according to media reports – has been permitted.

The production of EUV equipment is monopolized by ASML of the Netherlands, but it incorporates a light source made by an American company, Cymer, which ASML acquired in 2013. The Dutch government has to date supported the sanctions.

US sanctions may prevent SMIC from upgrading from DUV to EUV, but they have not stopped it from developing process technology at 10-nm and below. As a result, the US government is now seeking to ban sales of DUV lithography equipment to SMIC.

This will limit China's ability to produce anything smaller than 7-nm. The most advanced devices use 3 and 5-nm chips.

The TechInsights report has generated headlines but its basic message – that SMIC has crossed the line drawn by the US government – has been known for more than a year. On April 5, 2021, ComputeNorth – an American supplier of cryptocurrency, blockchain and other distributed computing services based in Minnesota – reported that:

“Previously available exclusively to private industrial clients, the MinerVa MV7 Pro is now becoming available on a global scale as one of the latest and most popular high-performance bitcoin miners on the market today. The MV7 utilizes the latest SMIC 7nm chip, and while its outlook appears promising, there is still much to be revealed regarding the miner and its longer-term performance.”

7-nm is the actual limit of DUV lithography: The 5-nm and 3-nm processes developed by TSMC and Samsung will not work without EUV.

It is quite likely that the US government has until recently not tried or not been able to impose a ban on the sale of DUV equipment to China because it would have forced ASML to abandon a large and fast-growing market.

It would also have hurt second source supplier Nikon and had a severe knock-on impact on makers of other semiconductor production equipment, including American market leaders Applied Materials, Lam Research and KLA.

While US sanctions have targeted the leading edge, SMIC has built a substantial business serving the bulk of the semiconductor market. Founded in 2000, it now ranks fifth in the world in terms of semiconductor foundry revenues after TSMC, Samsung Foundry, UMC and Global Foundries.

While recent sanctions have targeted S.M.I.C., some say more should have been done earlier, as they are now a powerful player in the market, ranking "fifth in the world in terms of semiconductor foundry revenues."

SMIC is the smallest of the middle-ranking foundries. Data from Gartner shows that in 2021, industry leader TSMC was 10 times larger than SMIC, Samsung Foundry 1.6 times larger and Global Foundries 21% larger. Other foundries in Taiwan, China and elsewhere are much smaller than SMIC.

SMIC fabricates a wide range of products for its customers, including power management ICs, microprocessors, image sensors, radio frequency and other devices used in wireless communications. It also makes touch controller ICs. In 2021, 64% of its sales were made in China, 22% in North America and 14% in Eurasia.

SMIC operates 200mm and 300mm wafer fabs (factories) in Shanghai, Beijing, Tianjin and Shenzhen, and has three new 300mm fabs under construction. Semiconductor foundry services generate more than 90% of SMIC’s revenues, with the rest coming from mask making, testing and other related services.

Headquartered in Shanghai, SMIC is traded on the Shanghai Stock Exchange Star Market and the Stock Exchange of Hong Kong. Its largest shareholder is China’s State-owned Assets Supervision and Administration Commission (SASAC), which has a 16% stake in the company.

The MinerVA news has had no significant impact on the share price so far. Meanwhile, it appears that the Americans are trying to close the stable door after the horse has bolted. Like that phrase, their policy may be as outdated.

China-SMIC-Chips.jpg


Source.

So, TLDR, it looks like China has found a way to sidestep some of the limitations from not having the most advanced chip fabrication technology. I have read about this issue for a few years now, with the arguments focusing on the need for revenue of the chip fab companies balanced against the need to retard their chip fab tech growth. What does Sherdog think about this development?
 
Last edited:
What does Sherdog think about this development?

It's an impressive achievement for China, no doubt.

It isn't so much that export controls aren't or can't be extremely effective, they've just been inconsistent, uneven half-measures often stupidly aimed at individual firms. US leaders are mostly inept and stupid, go figure. EUV lithography is one of the greatest technological feats ever achieved by humans and most people will never know it or care. The 'industry' (Read: ASML) is already gearing up to advance even further by 2025, where it'll be onto High NA lithography with process technology nodes measured in angstroms rather than nanometers. Intel plans to be an early adapter and it's their last chance to get back on a cutting edge, level playing field with TSMC and Samsung.
 
it's an impressive achievement for China.

It isn't so much that export controls aren't or can't be extremely effective, they've just been inconsistent, uneven half-measures often stupidly aimed at individual firms. US leaders are mostly inept and stupid, go figure. EUV lithography is one of the greatest technological feats ever achieved by humans and most people will never know it or care. The 'industry' (Read: ASML) is already gearing up to advance even further by 2025, where it'll be onto High NA lithography with process technology nodes measured in angstroms rather than nanometers. Intel plans to be an early adapter and it's their last chance to get back on a cutting edge, level playing field with TSMC and Samsung.
I am very impressed with this fabrication technology. I read on a laymen's level, because I am curious about the world. It sounds like you might have some practical knowledge. It would be great if you had a link on what you are saying, but I understand that it can be a little work to find a good link on a subject. It really does seem like Intel is falling permanently behind, though, from what I have read.
 
litography size today more matters for consumers stuff.

More transistors in core and more cores....
More clock speed...
Faster bus...
More RAM...
More data might be stored in SSD/HDD...
Etc.

Stuff is running usually in order to run...main stuff and under this all: OS running some virtual environments...running consumers software....

_
There aren't proof that we might be able even to do hardcore radiation hardening for 16 nm tech chip....
Not alone smaller litography...

+ x86 is oboslete and resources consuming architecture...
Especially for multicore chips...

Basically dead end.

ARM if chips should be used for mainstream consumers stuff too...isn't so cool...
Unless devs does know in depth know how ....about ARM assembly lang...and at least C /C++ too.

We literally usually are doing tasks IRL doable with comp from 2008 th...

Unless we will know how stuff how this work " under the hood ".
 
It's an impressive achievement for China, no doubt.

It isn't so much that export controls aren't or can't be extremely effective, they've just been inconsistent, uneven half-measures often stupidly aimed at individual firms. US leaders are mostly inept and stupid, go figure. EUV lithography is one of the greatest technological feats ever achieved by humans and most people will never know it or care. The 'industry' (Read: ASML) is already gearing up to advance even further by 2025, where it'll be onto High NA lithography with process technology nodes measured in angstroms rather than nanometers. Intel plans to be an early adapter and it's their last chance to get back on a cutting edge, level playing field with TSMC and Samsung.

Speaking of angstroms and the extraordinary technology of ICs, interesting to ponder that, as I understand it, we are nearly at the cusp of the limit on reducing transistor size. A transistor, by design, needs at least a few atoms of silicon, and the doping atoms of phosphorus and/or boron to create the junctions. It's been awhile since I've read up on it, by I used to work at a fab a few years ago. From what I remember, once node technology gets sub 2nm, there is effectively no way to go smaller as the minimum atoms required to make the transistor is greater than 1nm.
 
I just now remember about just one real life task.
In 2008 th I had 2 laptops.
One from them...old and this stuff had 1 core 32 bit 850 MHz CPU ( processor ) and 512 MB RAM....( 0,5GB)
I sometimes used this for example to pay bills in internet banking...

Now I use for THE same TASK.... for example from laptops...
Cheapest from my laptops does have 64 bit processor with 4 physical cores (!) and on reality some ~1600-2400 MHz " speed " and 8 GB physical RAM.

I don't see in this example any " progress " here...
Despite all nice talks....
While stuff where I really feel difference when doing this task .....is INTERNET connection ....SPEED...
There yeah ...huge progress during 22 years....
 
Speaking of angstroms and the extraordinary technology of ICs, interesting to ponder that, as I understand it, we are nearly at the cusp of the limit on reducing transistor size. A transistor, by design, needs at least a few atoms of silicon, and the doping atoms of phosphorus and/or boron to create the junctions. It's been awhile since I've read up on it, by I used to work at a fab a few years ago. From what I remember, once node technology gets sub 2nm, there is effectively no way to go smaller as the minimum atoms required to make the transistor is greater than 1nm.

Depends from current in " pipe ".
It might be 0,002 microampers- 16 and more miliampers or more in " pipeline ".
Cycle lenght too is different and chip doesn't contains just transistors in crystal...

We have to ensure insulation between " gates " enough in....dopped crystal...
+ ofc internal legging too does matter...

IMHO interesting disscussion.
My sub field was nanotech and biotech with emphasis on solid state physics and math. While I never had worked in this field; construction materials sales business then had more job offers and paid more + they weren't cocky.
 
Interesting. They did something like this in 07 iirc. They wanted to make a ball point pen without stealing the tech from Japan. They threw tons of money and resonances at it and it worked out. They learned from that and have applied that to semiconductors. Too bad it’s too late to stop china now
 
I am very impressed with this fabrication technology. I read on a laymen's level, because I am curious about the world. It sounds like you might have some practical knowledge. It would be great if you had a link on what you are saying, but I understand that it can be a little work to find a good link on a subject. It really does seem like Intel is falling permanently behind, though, from what I have read.

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/taiwans-importance-cant-be-overstated-or-can-it.4240986/

(second post)

Also feel free to chime in on the primary geopolitical aspects of that thread. You have some interesting views on that front -- I don't always or fully agree to say the least, but I respect them.

Interesting. They did something like this in 07 iirc. They wanted to make a ball point pen without stealing the tech from Japan. They threw tons of money and resonances at it and it worked out. They learned from that and have applied that to semiconductors. Too bad it’s too late to stop china now.

Surprise! <45>

China's SMIC Shipping 7nm Chips, Reportedly Copied TSMC's Tech

According to analyst firm TechInsights, Chinese foundry SMIC has been producing chips based on its 7nm process node for a Bitcoin Miner SoC, and they've been shipping since July of 2021 (h/t to SemiAnalysis). TechInsights has reverse-engineered the chip, saying the "initial images suggest it is a close copy of TSMC 7nm process technology," a telling discovery after Taiwan-based TSMC has sued SMIC twice in the past for copying its tech. The discovery comes as China continues to build out its own homegrown semiconductor production, with the heavily-sanctioned SMIC leading the way. Meanwhile, the US government is on the cusp of approving large subsidies for US-based chipmakers.

The TechInsights report says that TSMC, Samsung, and Intel have all developed far more sophisticated technology than SMIC's 7nm and are at least two nodes ahead. Regardless, the significance of SMIC shipping its 7nm process can't be overstated — SMIC has been heavily sanctioned by the US government, restricting its access to advanced EUV chipmaking tools. However, the firm can obviously use its existing tools to produce 7nm chips (and possibly smaller), albeit with less desirable economics and yield. Those cost factors are hardly a concern for China as it seeks technological independence from Western countries by developing its own supply of indigenously-produced chips.
 
The way they use that "7nm" you'd think it was actually a measurement.
 
The marketing guys don't think so apparently.

The nanometer naming convention has been absolute hell for Intel in the press, and made it appear like they were far more behind than they actually are/were.
 
The nanometer naming convention has been absolute hell for Intel in the press, and made it appear like they were far more behind than they actually are/were.

Yeah, little surprise that Intel had a crack at pushing for a new standardised naming convention, but it just came across as sour grapes given their delays at the time.
I wonder if they'll hold out until they reach 1nm+++.
 
Yeah, little surprise that Intel had a crack at pushing for a new standardised naming convention, but it just came across as sour grapes given their delays at the time. I wonder if they'll hold out until they reach 1nm+++.


{<jordan}

They aren't out of the woods yet and the immense historical legacy will obviously do absolutely nothing to save them, but I don't think this is the moment where Intel falls off for good. It will be in a significantly stronger position circa 2025 (IMO). Plus the US federal government has now stepped in to subsidize capital expenditures, which has always been on a far smaller local and state level.
 
From my understanding node size reduction will only get you so far . At some point we bump into the end of Moore's law. The next phase will be quantum computing, which we are well on our way to achieving. Quantum sounds like magic to me. But I have a friend who is a research scientist who states it's real.
 
From my understanding node size reduction will only get you so far . At some point we bump into the end of Moore's law. The next phase will be quantum computing, which we are well on our way to achieving. Quantum sounds like magic to me. But I have a friend who is a research scientist who states it's real.

Quantum Computing: Intel's cryogenic chip shows it can control qubits even in a deep freeze

Intel's quantum computing efforts are starting to show tangible results: two years after the company first unveiled its Horse Ridge cryogenic control chip, researchers have demonstrated that the technology is delivering on its original promise, and paving the way for quantum computers to become more practical.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03469-4

The most promising quantum algorithms require quantum processors that host millions of quantum bits when targeting practical applications. A key challenge towards large-scale quantum computation is the interconnect complexity. In current solid-state qubit implementations, an important interconnect bottleneck appears between the quantum chip in a dilution refrigerator and the room-temperature electronics.

Advanced lithography supports the fabrication of both control electronics and qubits in silicon using technology compatible with complementary metal oxide semiconductors (CMOS). When the electronics are designed to operate at cryogenic temperatures, they can ultimately be integrated with the qubits on the same die or package, overcoming the ‘wiring bottleneck'.

Here we report a cryogenic CMOS control chip operating at 3 kelvin, which outputs tailored microwave bursts to drive silicon quantum bits cooled to 20 millikelvin. We first benchmark the control chip and find an electrical performance consistent with qubit operations of 99.99 percent fidelity, assuming ideal qubits. Next, we use it to coherently control actual qubits encoded in the spin of single electrons confined in silicon quantum dots and find that the cryogenic control chip achieves the same fidelity as commercial instruments at room temperature.

Furthermore, we demonstrate the capabilities of the control chip by programming a number of benchmarking protocols, as well as the Deutsch–Josza algorithm. These results open up the way towards a fully integrated, scalable silicon-based quantum computer.
 
I just now remember about just one real life task.
In 2008 th I had 2 laptops.
One from them...old and this stuff had 1 core 32 bit 850 MHz CPU ( processor ) and 512 MB RAM....( 0,5GB)
I sometimes used this for example to pay bills in internet banking...

Now I use for THE same TASK.... for example from laptops...
Cheapest from my laptops does have 64 bit processor with 4 physical cores (!) and on reality some ~1600-2400 MHz " speed " and 8 GB physical RAM.

I don't see in this example any " progress " here...
Despite all nice talks....
While stuff where I really feel difference when doing this task .....is INTERNET connection ....SPEED...
There yeah ...huge progress during 22 years....

Are you trying to claim there isn't much progress because your old CPU ran at 850mhz and new processors run at 1600mhz?
 
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/taiwans-importance-cant-be-overstated-or-can-it.4240986/

(second post)

Also feel free to chime in on the primary geopolitical aspects of that thread. You have some interesting views on that front -- I don't always or fully agree to say the least, but I respect them.



Surprise! <45>

China's SMIC Shipping 7nm Chips, Reportedly Copied TSMC's Tech

According to analyst firm TechInsights, Chinese foundry SMIC has been producing chips based on its 7nm process node for a Bitcoin Miner SoC, and they've been shipping since July of 2021 (h/t to SemiAnalysis). TechInsights has reverse-engineered the chip, saying the "initial images suggest it is a close copy of TSMC 7nm process technology," a telling discovery after Taiwan-based TSMC has sued SMIC twice in the past for copying its tech. The discovery comes as China continues to build out its own homegrown semiconductor production, with the heavily-sanctioned SMIC leading the way. Meanwhile, the US government is on the cusp of approving large subsidies for US-based chipmakers.

The TechInsights report says that TSMC, Samsung, and Intel have all developed far more sophisticated technology than SMIC's 7nm and are at least two nodes ahead. Regardless, the significance of SMIC shipping its 7nm process can't be overstated — SMIC has been heavily sanctioned by the US government, restricting its access to advanced EUV chipmaking tools. However, the firm can obviously use its existing tools to produce 7nm chips (and possibly smaller), albeit with less desirable economics and yield. Those cost factors are hardly a concern for China as it seeks technological independence from Western countries by developing its own supply of indigenously-produced chips.
Lol you can’t take china anywhere
https://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2017-01/10/content_27914014.htm
The ball pen thing I was taking about

honestly I figured with enough tech they could have made it without blatant dishonesty
 
Back
Top