Small question about 'turtling'...

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Just Jared, Jul 19, 2010.

  1. Just Jared

    Just Jared Brown Belt

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    Just as a little precusor... I'm a white belt and one of the smallest guys at my gym. At training the other night I was rolling with a guy that was roughly twice my size, and several times he'd just turtle up, face to floor, with his arms, head, etc all tucked in. I tried to get his back from this position but there wasn't enough room for me to hook his legs, and due to the size difference he was able to buck me off before I had too much time to work. He wasn't able to do anything offensively from this position, of course, but there didn't seem to be anything I could do to stop it either. What would you guys recommend? I was thinking perhaps there was some way to sweep him over onto his back, but I couldn't figure it out during the roll.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2010
  2. Butler

    Butler Orange Belt

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    The bigger guys at my gym do the same.

    Be agressive, don't be afraid to try for a quick harness grip (one over hook, one under) before he tightens up.

    Key thing is not to over extend (lean too far foward) so you get swept. Keep a good centre of gravity and don't necessarily worry about the leg hooks, keeping chest-to-back pressure at all times.

    I like to work for the harness -> roll them backwards onto their ass (then get the leg hooks in), often following up with an armbar (cus they don't expect it from a white :D).
     
  3. Just Jared

    Just Jared Brown Belt

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    I actually did sneak in a harness grip a couple times he tried it, but all I did was use it to try and take the back while he was still in the turtle position, which just resulted in me getting bucked off and starting again from scratch.

    I think what you said about chest-to-back pressure is a good tip, though. I often end up off balance going for things like that so I think my centre of gravity is something I really need to be working on. Perhaps I should've been using the harness grip to pull him around a bit rather than just attempting to jump on his back?
     
  4. sanchezero

    sanchezero Green Belt

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    a simple idea to play with is to get to one side and break him down toward you. say you're on his right side and you've got grips - place your right knee against his right calf to block his base, keep your chest tight to his back, and sit down to your right. as he tips toward you be ready with your left hook.
     
  5. SuperSuperRambo

    SuperSuperRambo Senior Moderator Senior Moderator

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    The reason you couldn't take his back is lack of skill, not the size difference. You're probably doing it wrong. Keep working at taking the back, and if you can, ask your instructor what you're doing wrong. Go for one hook at a time, near side first. Get head and arm control before doing this.
     
  6. Just Jared

    Just Jared Brown Belt

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    sanchezero: That sounds like a good idea. Like I said, I was jumping right on top of his back once I managed to get the harness grip, I neglected to break him down beforehand. I think that might have been the problem. Thanks for the advice, I'll try it out.

    SuperSuperRambo: Oh, I wasn't trying to say size difference alone was stopping me. It's an added challenge when I can be ragdolled by my opponent, but I'm well aware that I just need to work harder on my technique to make up for it. Wasn't meant to sound like an excuse, just added it in there to give an idea of our body types more than anything in case that changed what strategies I should employ.

    I was able to get head and arm control, it was when it came to getting the hooks in that I had trouble as I couldn't find enough space to get my leg through. I'll take your advice about the near side into consideration next time I'm at training, thanks for the help.
     
  7. Hillary

    Hillary Brown Belt

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    Ask PerfectBalance. I hear he's an expert on the subject.
     
  8. Shemhazai

    Shemhazai Black Belt

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    If you can get the seatbelt, but not the hooks, you might want to look into the crucifix.
     
  9. koolinkunming

    koolinkunming Silver Belt

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    Hillary, I'd seriously like to hear what your take is. I'd like to pick your brain about a lot of things bjj related, actually. Total noob here, main training partner is 210 lbs, I'm 150 or so...

    And sanchezero and SuperSuperRambo: good stuff. I'll try this out if I can find out how to keep the bigger guys off of mount and get their back. I can get them off, but keeping them off is the tough part.
     
  10. Jagcorps_esq

    Jagcorps_esq Red Belt

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    Here's a nice trick I just learned recently.

    Grab their collar just behind their neck. Grad their belt. Switch to the side of them and put your foot closest to their feet directly on their calf. Now pull hard.

    This should result in you being in a very comfortable (for you) knee on belly type position. It's extremely uncomfortable for the person on bottom.
     
  11. thegreenblender

    thegreenblender Brown Belt

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    4:20, check out Nogueira's foot grabby technique. A nifty one occasionally

     
  12. GetBeasty

    GetBeasty Orange Belt

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    Nice vid,thanks for sharing. I like the move you referenced, it seemed to force him to widen his legs and opened a gap for Nog to get the hook in.
     
  13. SuperSuperRambo

    SuperSuperRambo Senior Moderator Senior Moderator

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    I know, I'm a small guy too. But size will be your opponent's advantage in pretty much all positions, not the new one. But it doesn't change how you take the back, the strategy is the same in this case.
     
  14. SuperSuperRambo

    SuperSuperRambo Senior Moderator Senior Moderator

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    I would again like to emphasize that as a new student, you should still be focusing on being able to take the back, rather than bailing on that opportunity and trying to work on alternatives to attacking the turtle position.
     
  15. rryanreid

    rryanreid White Belt

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    Theres a tonne of stuff of you could go for. I'm the biggest guy where I train, and I tell you, if the smaller guys just new a few more tricks they'd get me from the back no problem. When someone turtles and protects his neck it can be difficult to sink in a choke, but you have plenty more options.

    You could change position, and sink in an anaconda choke, you could go to side control and sink in a calf crush. From side control you could look for a darce. You could go for a rolling armbar, or collar choke.

    Plenty of options. I think in BJJ you need to break every part of the game down. Guard, side control, mount, back, etc and have a game plan for each position. You do that you'll get good fast.

    Plenty of stuff to learn, as Royler Gracie says, "theres no limit to JiuJitsu"
     
  16. jmorrell

    jmorrell White Belt

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    You can always attack a clock choke or one of its variations, especially if they are protecting back mount well.
     
  17. argy-bargy

    argy-bargy Green Belt

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    Think about what he is trying to defend by going to turtle position, then focus your movements on what he is not defending/thinking about. If he is trying to defend the neck, try threaten the back. If he is defending you getting the hooks try get into a traditional sprawl position and work from there.

    There are also a couple of really nice rolling sweeps to do with a turtling opponent, although it might be hard with a much larger opponent. I have a couple of rolling sweeps but they are just too hard to explain in text, ask your instructor to drill the position with the class one day
     
  18. Just Jared

    Just Jared Brown Belt

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    Excuse my late response, guys, but I just wanted to thank everyone for the advice. The fella that likes to turtle up on me missed a few sessions so I haven't had the chance to try and counter it yet, but I think I'm going to stick with trying to gain control of his back as was suggested earlier rather than going for something else just yet. It's great to see how many options there are though, very interesting to keep in mind. Thanks again everyone.
     
  19. xcydal

    xcydal I am in here.

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    Well, we all know what my take on turtling is.
     
  20. Carrera26

    Carrera26 Orange Belt

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    Being a Judoka, and having the turtle happen quite a lot in our sport, there are LOTS AND LOTS of options, most common being the Clock choke (Okuri Eri Jime), a Triangle variation (Sankaku), and Armbar (both with the arms and with the legs). There are also dozens of great turnovers into good control positions.

    I included the Judo names so you can try and search Youtube using them in combination with "Turtle" and "Judo". One good one, for example, is "Okano Okuri Eri Jime" done by legendary Judoka Okano.

    The easiest and quickest way to open up a turtle is to grab the back of the collar and the belt while on your feet and give them a good strong jerk forward and up. This will usually give you some room to work, but only for a second, you need to be quick on your follow-up.

    Also look up Eduardo Telles, a BJJer legendary for his Turtle. He uses it very effectively as an active guard.
     

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