Slow movements do not help any athlete in any sport

[scoopj]

I found this quote from John Broz here:

John Broz interview - Page 2 - Bodybuilding.com Forums

And here is the context. Somebody asked him why his guys (Olympic lifters) only do max on deadlifts 2-3x a year. His response?

"Body positions are CRUCIAL to weightlifting success. max deads force you to pull shoulders back too early, round your back, and lose the proper positions needed for the second pull in the lifts. This will only push progress back along with the simple fact that slow movements do not help any athlete in any sport. "The fastest athlete is the greatest athlete"

When we max in the DL, it's only for my curiosity to gauge other lifts from and to see when positions start to break down."​

That statement strikes me as too exclusive, but on the other hand there seems to be something to what he's saying about the importance of power and speed to athletics.

Does he make a valid point or is his perspective limited because his sport is all he knows?

 

[Indivdude]

Well I'm no expert but I thought that was already thought to be true. That as long as you push weights as fast as you can without intentionally slowing down the speed then you're fine. Unless he means explosive speed. In any case, I don't know if slow movements like max DL's are bad overall but I believe there were studies linked here that showed that doing slow movements (doing them slow on purpose) made you slower which wouldn't be a benefit to most athletes in general.

 

[Boganzo]

Interesting you should ask this. Not that this is the best example but i always wondered the merits of slow controlled movement training such as demonstrated below.

YouTube - how to train high kick! girl kick champ gracyer aki

Sorry. Not good at embedding.

 

[Tosa]

First it's not clear what he means. Like Indivdude mentioned, it could be that he just means that deliberately lifting slowly isn't useful for sports. Although I don't think that's the case, because it's mentioned in the context of deadlifting, so it makes more sense that he's calling the deadlift slow in comparison to the squat, or the olympic lifts. In which case his statement is complete nonsense.

 

[Bubble Boy]

I'm not convinced that doing slower, but heavier, lifts in the off season would be a bad thing. It would enable an athelete to get considerabley stronger for speed lifting later (as the season approaches).

 

[paolo27th]

Interesting you should ask this. Not that this is the best example but i always wondered the merits of slow controlled movement training such as demonstrated below.

YouTube - how to train high kick! girl kick champ gracyer aki

Sorry. Not good at embedding.

My guess is she`s trying to increase her control in those positions. I dunno if it`s too helpful tho since when done at normal speed those movements would be pulling her balance in totally different ways.

 

[Bennayboi]

Sherdog is behind the curve when it comes to training for athletics.

 

[Dafreeclinic]

Sherdog is behind the curve when it comes to training for athletics.

Then enlighten us with this incredible knowledge of yours.

 

[rckvl]

Sherdog is behind the curve when it comes to training for athletics.

Yep, we hate getting stronger in lifts that increase performance such as the squat and deadlift. Utterly useless lifts.

 

[Indivdude]

Then enlighten us with this incredible knowledge of yours.

Well it starts with training the big toe my friend. Roman toe swings are the way forward for maximum strength and power.

 

[Bennayboi]

Then enlighten us with this incredible knowledge of yours.

SS style programs are better for becoming a powerlifter than becoming a better athlete. Its missing unilateral work, size building exercises as well as too little explosive/agility work. If you want to increase your lifts, go for it, but if you want to get bigger, stronger, faster, and jump higher you should go with something similar WS4SB. Theres more to athletics than just raw strength.

 

[Boxer Rebellion]

SS style programs are better for becoming a powerlifter than becoming a better athlete. Its missing unilateral work, size building exercises as well as too little explosive/agility work. If you want to increase your lifts, go for it, but if you want to get bigger, stronger, faster, and jump higher you should go with something similar WS4SB. Theres more to athletics than just raw strength.

I see... so strength training beginners should NOT do deadlifts and squats.

Because that's all that SS is really, telling novices to do lots of squatting and deadlifting.

Gotcha. That's some really advanced knowledge you've got there, chief.

 

[theBrookDweller]

SS style programs are better for becoming a powerlifter than becoming a better athlete. Its missing unilateral work, size building exercises as well as too little explosive/agility work. If you want to increase your lifts, go for it, but if you want to get bigger, stronger, faster, and jump higher you should go with something similar WS4SB. Theres more to athletics than just raw strength.

So what you're saying is that instead of doing SS, I should be doing WS4SB?

What if I'm a fat fuck and not a skinny bastard?

What if I'm a novice?


I don't know man, it seems pretty logical to me that I'd want to do a beginner's program, like I don't know.....Starting Stength. Maybe after that I can move on to something else, but I'm pretty sure a novice would be better off with a simpler program than WS4SB

 

[Dafreeclinic]

SS style programs are better for becoming a powerlifter than becoming a better athlete. Its missing unilateral work, size building exercises as well as too little explosive/agility work. If you want to increase your lifts, go for it, but if you want to get bigger, stronger, faster, and jump higher you should go with something similar WS4SB. Theres more to athletics than just raw strength.

Theres the power clean so there is some explosive training. Agility is affected by strength. In its most extreme form its stopping the force of your body going one way to go forcefully the other way. You can always add in in agility work even though strength is in alot of cases the limiting factor.

 

[Bennayboi]

So what you're saying is that instead of doing SS, I should be doing WS4SB?

What if I'm a fat fuck and not a skinny bastard?

What if I'm a novice?


I don't know man, it seems pretty logical to me that I'd want to do a beginner's program, like I don't know.....Starting Stength. Maybe after that I can move on to something else, but I'm pretty sure a novice would be better off with a simpler program than WS4SB

WS4SB is a beginner program, and will work regardless of your weight. But you raise a good point, there isnt one program for everyone, and everyone is different... ws4sb even lets you pick the exercises instead of forcing a set of exercises down your throat. Im not necessarily saying everyone should do ws4sb, im just saying its a better program.

dafreeclinic, mark rippetoe advising against adding ANY exercises other than what is in his programs. This is partially my point. And an athletes explosive training shouldnt be limited to the powerlcean alone.

Boxer, you made up everything in your post.

 

[enright3060]

SS style programs are better for becoming a powerlifter than becoming a better athlete. Its missing unilateral work, size building exercises as well as too little explosive/agility work. If you want to increase your lifts, go for it, but if you want to get bigger, stronger, faster, and jump higher you should go with something similar WS4SB. Theres more to athletics than just raw strength.

I don't think anyone would argue that the only thing that is important for being a good athlete is strength. Your overall point, however, is a bit of a false dilemma. You are assuming that you can do SS and be a shitty athlete because you exclude every other facet of athletic training or do something else that will help you be a better athlete. SS is a novice barbell program that is only meant to be run for a short period of time. A young athlete can use it while focusing on maximal strength for a short period of time in the off-season. I highly doubt a 14-15 year old kid will become a shitty athlete by spending a few months during the summer trying to get stronger. I also doubt that if pressed Rip or Bill Starr would argue that a young football player, for example, ought not do nothing else but lift weights during that summer. The kid clearly needs to be in good enough shape to practice once the season starts.

And, any sensible block perodization program for an advanced athlete will have some time that focusing on getting strong.

 

[Tosa]

Rippetoe advises changing anything about the routine because people using starting strength aren't generally the type of people who know enough to properly modify a program. This doesn't mean that the program itself can't be, and isn't modified successfully, and I'd think that when training someone himself Rippetoe does in fact make changes.

The program is meant to be an introduction to strength training. The best way to improve Power/Explosiveness for someone who's new to lifting weights is to just get stronger. Devoting a signifcant amount of effort to explosiveness at that point would be a waste of time and energy. It also attempts to balance strength gains and hypertrophy with the 3x5 rep/set scheme...and it will work very well for hypertrophy if someone is eating enough.

Also, does unilateral work needs to be included in a beginning strength program? IMO, no. And it's also silly to use the word "athlete" when someone's not referring to a sport, or particular sort of activity. It's ridiculously broad term, and the needs of one athlete will varying greatly. I mean why even try to talk about strength training for "athletes" in general, when the term covers marathoners, rock climbers, rugby players, swimmers, etc. Their needs in terms of size, explosivness, agility will all be different.

But the basics are constant, and that is a certain amount of strength will benefit any sport, and the best way to develop strength is with basic compounds lifts, like those used in starting strength. When someone has achieved a certain level of proffiency at basic strength movements, then they can start to worry about explosiveness, agility, or unilateral exercises. Because all of those things don't mean jack if you're weak as a kitten. (The exception would be is if there are imbalances to the extent that unilateral exercises should be done in place of other lifts).

Keep in mind that routines don't have to balance all the various qualities a particular person might want to develop. Starting Strength, is like the title says, just a start. And maybe when working to improve size, max lifts might not improve so much, or when working on agility, strength and size may stary constant or even decline a little. But a program like Starting Strength provides a base that these other qualities can be built on.

 

[VoodooPlata]

Bennay, why don't you provide us with a link to a forum that is a lot better for sports?

Also waiting for Glenn and Keith to get in here and find out that they are behind the curve you mention.

 

[BrassBalls]

I don't think anyone would argue that the only thing that is important for being a good athlete is strength. Your overall point, however, is a bit of a false dilemma. You are assuming that you can do SS and be a shitty athlete because you exclude every other facet of athletic training or do something else that will help you be a better athlete. SS is a novice barbell program that is only meant to be run for a short period of time. A young athlete can use it while focusing on maximal strength for a short period of time in the off-season. I highly doubt a 14-15 year old kid will become a shitty athlete by spending a few months during the summer trying to get stronger. I also doubt that if pressed Rip or Bill Starr would argue that a young football player, for example, ought not do nothing else but lift weights during that summer. The kid clearly needs to be in good enough shape to practice once the season starts.

And, any sensible block perodization program for an advanced athlete will have some time that focusing on getting strong.

 

[miaou]

I found this quote from John Broz here:

John Broz interview - Page 2 - Bodybuilding.com Forums

And here is the context. Somebody asked him why his guys (Olympic lifters) only do max on deadlifts 2-3x a year. His response?

"Body positions are CRUCIAL to weightlifting success. max deads force you to pull shoulders back too early, round your back, and lose the proper positions needed for the second pull in the lifts. This will only push progress back along with the simple fact that slow movements do not help any athlete in any sport. "The fastest athlete is the greatest athlete"

When we max in the DL, it's only for my curiosity to gauge other lifts from and to see when positions start to break down."​

That statement strikes me as too exclusive, but on the other hand there seems to be something to what he's saying about the importance of power and speed to athletics.

Does he make a valid point or is his perspective limited because his sport is all he knows?

It is too exclusive, you can find certain examples in sports where strength is applied to slow movements. And in some sports max strength is more important than others. In general however it is true that in most sports the amount of force you can apply in a very sort period of time is much more important than the amount of force you can apply regardless of the time it takes to apply it. It is also true that when speaking about anything other than beginner athletes, they [should] have already built a strength foundation beyond the beginner level. And Tosa's point is valid about the need to define the sport; in such a sentence I understand he is not refering to marathoners, but rather to "dynamic sports" (anywhere from track and field, to tennis, to basketball, to martial arts, etc.).

Again, set specific goals, find the best way to reach them.