Single-Payer Health Care Dies in Vermont

Discussion in 'The War Room' started by second sight, Jan 18, 2015.

  1. second sight

    second sight We have officially entered the "Age of Deception"

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    From 60 minutes..

    "Brill takes a comprehensive look at what what the new law does and doesn't do. Brill argues that obamacare is the product of what he calls an orgy of lobbying and backroom deals in which just about everyone with a stake in the 3 trillion dollar health industry came out ahead, except the tax payers."

    http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/topics/60-minutes/

    Listen to the family in the video said, they had to go out of network and pay 48 thousand dollars out of pocket before they even received services. Now they blame that on a bad policy and say, they are now covered with a good obamacare plan 100% subsidized by tax payers. The fact of the matter is if you're paying for insurance and you seek this type treatment in an out of network provider you have just about the same exposure.

    This is a call out thread to all of you talking shit when I gave my personal experience with health-care this year. There are no cost controls in the law, gruber himself admitted as much. This scam has tentacles that can grab you from anywhere.

    I mentioned before my family's premiums are 24k per year, for the very best policy available, MD Anderson is not in my network, so if I went there to be treated I would be responsible for the 24k in premiums plus 15k out of network deductible plus medicine and who knows what else. Thats over 40k out of pocket for the very best plan available and then add another 15k, pushing it to 55 thousand dollars if two people in my family had serious health issues.

    For a bronze plan (the bottom one) it's 15k for my family with a $6,000.00 per person or a $12,000.00 per family deductible (in network, it jumps way up out of network) I would have to pay 100% of everything until the deductibles are met. That means at minimum, I pay $21,000.00 fucking dollars every year before I see a single penny out of this so called insurance.

    You all laugh now because you get subsidized but look at the first article I posted this will eventually crash on you to.
     
  2. AlucardNatasrd

    AlucardNatasrd Blue Belt

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    21,000 a year is effectively 3 times the previous cost of healthcare on average for Americans.

    This is disastrous beyond reckoning.
     
  3. second sight

    second sight We have officially entered the "Age of Deception"

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    For the people paying for a bronze plan, they will pay a monthly payment and when they go to the doctor they will still have to pay the entire bill, (until the deductible is met) just like they didn't have insurance except when people don't have insurance they get a cash discount, here they get no discount they get gouged at every step in the process like the video said. So what that means is many people simply won't go to the doctor because they can't afford it, exactly they same thing we had before.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2015
  4. AlucardNatasrd

    AlucardNatasrd Blue Belt

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    My mother has a 2,000 dollar deductible which effectively excludes her capacity to go to the doctor, although at least that is better than what you have.

    Christ - this is just...absurd.
     
  5. Codger

    Codger Brown Belt

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    I'm pretty ignorant on this whole healthcare thing as it pertains to the USA. I'm struggling to understand the fact that the USA, with its private healthcare system, spends significantly more on it per capita and per GDP than any other country in the world.

    I know a lot of Americans look at the UK's NHS as an example of how supposedly terrible things would be under a social healthcare scheme, but the figures appear to show that the NHS is pretty good value compared to the US, costing the UK less than half the amount of money per person.

    If you don't like the UK as an example due to healthcare standards, Sweden supposedly has possibly the best healthcare in the world and has similar amount of money spent on it.

    So why are so many Americans happy to spend almost double the amount of money of other advanced nations and terrified of social healthcare?
     
  6. AlucardNatasrd

    AlucardNatasrd Blue Belt

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    I think of it this way:

    America offers the Jaguar of health care. We have the best doctors, the best hospitals, the most specialists, the most specialized care centers, the best surgeons, the best research and educational institutions, et cetera...and we pay out the ass for it all.

    Meanwhile, the UK offers the Mini-Cooper of health-care. Like the Mini-Cooper, you can get by just fine with it, but you aren't getting a superior machine, you're just paying far less.

    Obama has effectively managed to fuck the system even more so that we get less and pay more.
     
  7. BVG

    BVG Double Yellow Card Double Yellow Card

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    Maybe it's because Americans are programmed to hate anything called socialized? And as such will pay out of their asses for the biggest baddest capitalist version...regardless if it's the most efficient or even if they can afford it.

    'Mericuh...fuck ya!
     
  8. SirDiddymus

    SirDiddymus Banned Banned

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    The ignorance of this post is just mind boggling. Hint - Lowest life expectancy = Murica. And at double the price.
     
  9. AlucardNatasrd

    AlucardNatasrd Blue Belt

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    The United States' life expectancy is 5 years less than the Japanese. Why? Because the Japanese have a better diet and are genetically predisposed to longevity compared to the population in America.

    America has a large population of blacks which have the lowest life expectancy amongst the races for a host of medical reasons, and has a significant amount of immigrants who rarely live as long as native born inhabitants in any country (as immigration tends to be associated with early poverty which diminishes life expectancy).

    And by the way: The United States is 36th. Above Denmark, Poland, and Crotia - three European countries with socialized medicine. The difference, of course, is barely a few months of life expectancy.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy

    Americans are not living substantially less than other countries. Moreover, why is longevity even that notable of a goal for a healthcare system? These are years of old age which are the least desirable in life.
     
  10. AlucardNatasrd

    AlucardNatasrd Blue Belt

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    Americans want cheaper health care, but they do not want to lose the benefits of having an expensive one. There is no way to reconcile these opposing desires, so the end result is stagnation.
     
  11. Bork

    Bork Purple Belt

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    Outside of the life expectancy (LE), do you have any other data? Going off of my memory, the US's LE number may not be outlandisly low compared to other countries, but the quality of life (QOL) is lower as well.

    Also, data on migration rate? This is more important than raw immigrant population sizes due to difference in total country populations.

    Black people? Last I checked, their medical issues were poor outcome rates for various reasons and not just predispositions as well as being on the low end of the socioeconomic order.
     
  12. dza76wutang

    dza76wutang Black Belt

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    Laying the blame at the foot of the legislation (although I agree it is far from perfect) does not adequately convey how much of a clusterfuck America's healthcare system is. The challenges I see, from within the industry, is a fundamental issue of risk management underneath a complex "web" of competing priorities. The problem is those priorities really push against each other and lead to partial solutions as we lurch forward with medical inflation outpacing damn near everything else.
     
  13. AlucardNatasrd

    AlucardNatasrd Blue Belt

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    I don't know how you would qualify Quality of Life on a medical level.

    Also, data on migration rate? This is more important than raw immigrant population sizes due to difference in total country populations.

    Black people? Last I checked, their medical issues were poor outcome rates for various reasons and not just predispositions as well as being on the low end of the socioeconomic order.[/QUOTE]

    http://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings.jsp

    4-8 of the top QOL cities on this list are in America. So, I don't know...? I mean, I really don't know how you quantify this, especially medically.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_migration_rate

    The migration rate in the US is 40th in the world, though I do not know if this counts illegal immigration. As plenty of our immigration is illegal (potentially as high as 20-30 million individuals in the last 20 years), that'd change the numbers significantly.

    Dr. Michael Hart gives genetic causes for (some) part of black American (and world wide black) mortality rates in "Understanding Human History".

    http://www.webmd.com/hypertension-h...ures/why-7-deadly-diseases-strike-blacks-most

    Blacks suffer from a multitude of disorders that seem genetic in origin on a level far in excess of whites.

    Simply put, though: The US has a large percentage of blacks and Hispanics who, in general, do not live as long as whites and East Asians. This lowers overall life expectancy in the United States. See:

    http://www.livescience.com/183-life-expectancy-america-hits-record-high.html
     
  14. cottagecheesefan

    cottagecheesefan Gold Belt

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    Think of it this way, for 2014, Forbes ranked the UK 1 in healthcare and the US at 11, out of 11 couuntries in the article.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/danmunr...ked-dead-last-compared-to-10-other-countries/


    According to bloomberg, UK 20, US 44

    http://www.bloomberg.com/visual-data/best-and-worst//most-efficient-health-care-2014-countries


    Even more so, based on the world health organization, the US is fricken 72nd place, while the UK is 18.

    http://thepatientfactor.com/canadia...zations-ranking-of-the-worlds-health-systems/


    I do not know why you are using life expectancy and factors like diet and predisposition to longevity as factoring into healthcare systems. There are organizations that do research on stuff like this using lots of data, not your subjective opinions.
     
  15. second sight

    second sight We have officially entered the "Age of Deception"

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    I have the $500.00 deductible platinum policy, I can go to the doctor for $15.00, specialist for $30.00 etc. It's expensive but at least it's real insurance, as is your moms with a $2,000.00 deductible hers is likely a gold plan and will allow co-pays for doctors visits of 20-40 dollars.

    I guess I confused you talking about the bronze and silver plans, they aren't health insurance plans they are catastrophic insurance. They basically make sure the hospital will get payed for services but with high deductibles on even in network procedures they will still be left with huge debt. According to the NYP article in the OP by design the policy holder is responsible for 40% of their health care cost.
    Thats one of my points nothing in this bill addresses the cost of healthcare 40% of a huge hospital bill still bankrupts you.
    Another point I wanted to make was how you get hammered if you go out of your insurances network. For the life of me I can't understand why they would have left something like that in a law that forces you to buy insurance.
    I wrote this in the other thread, with the very best insurance available, someone could go on a trip out of town, get in a bad car accident and still be responsible for 50-60 thousand dollars in medical bills.

    This doesn't even began to touch all the things that aren't included under these policies either.
     
  16. AlucardNatasrd

    AlucardNatasrd Blue Belt

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    Most ratings place the US low primarily because we do not provide healthcare to all people through single-payer, which is a less efficient, less equitable system. It does not take into consideration the actual quality of care provided, nor the quality of institutions, amount of specialists, et cetera.

    Simply put: If you value everyone geting some decent care for cheap, v. anyone (note: not everyone) getting some good care expensively, you favour the world; if not, you favour the US.

    Single payer options aren't a bad idea, but the world would probably suffer tremendously if the US ceased being privately based. Simply put: The US is where medicine goes to make money, which translates to the amount of medical innovations made being much higher in the US compared to the rest of the world.
     
  17. AlucardNatasrd

    AlucardNatasrd Blue Belt

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    My mother would've had to pay 20% of all doctor visits + 400 dollars a month + 2000 deductible. I consider that "really bad insurance". That's 4,800 + 2,000 = 6,800 -base- cost.

    This wasn't for a family, this was for her alone.
     
  18. cottagecheesefan

    cottagecheesefan Gold Belt

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    Ignores three different studies on world healthcare done by professionals, experts in the field, who I am sure base all their findings on irrelevant data.

    Believes the whole world will be in trouble if we didn't have private healthcare in our country.

    Wow.....
     
  19. Jack V Savage

    Jack V Savage Secretary of Keepin' It Real/Nicest Guy on Sherdog Platinum Member

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    By "talking shit," you mean posting a link that definitively refutes your false claims. And the ACA has a lot of cost controls, and Gruber's model helped design them. Note that healthcare cost growth is at all-time low levels since the law was enacted.
     
  20. SirDiddymus

    SirDiddymus Banned Banned

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    I would expect your "Jaguar" healthcare system to do better. It
     

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