Shoulder Locks in Judo Competitions

[Luther]

From another thread, Luther wrote:

In Judo is illegal "to apply Kansetsu-waza anywhere other than to the elbow joint."

When you apply correctly techniques like kimura, americana and omoplata, you feel the pressure in the shoulder, the elbow is used just to transmit the rotation. The above moves are mostly shoulder locks and thus should be prohibited in judo. However I've seen the americana (keylock) done in judo competitions. May someone explaint to me the apparent disconnect?

I practice BJJ and intend to compete in Judo so the above would be useful to me.

Ybot replied:

I've kinda wondered about this too. As a BJJ guy I know that when a kimura or Americana or omoplata is good I feel it in my shoulder. I don't recall ever tapping because of my elbow being locked up in any way. Is there any good explination for this? You judo guys when you practice newaza I would suspect that you feel the pressure/pain in the same place... How is it not against the rules then?

Please keep the discussion focused on judo competition rules, this thread is directed especially at guys that want to compete in judo.

 

[georgejjr]

That's actually an interesting question, and one which even comes up in judo circles. I guess the real answer is that udegarami (the Kimura) and sankakugatame (omoplata) have always been considered elbow locks in principle, so they're considered to be such in competion by the IJF as well, even though 95% of the time they're actually shoulder locks. Both are common in international level judo, so IJF level referees (the highest refereeing grades) obviously interpret them that way. There are in fact referees at local tournaments who will penalize omoplata because they feel it's a shoulder lock - an interesting example of where less experienced refs make a call that would be considered incorrect at higher levels, but which actually is probably more in line with IJF rules. Having said that, I like using both, so I'm glad they're officially allowed

In practice it's impossible for the ref to know if the competitor is feeling it in the shoulder or the elbow (people with very flexible shoulders bend until it catches at the elbow), so they give the guy applying it the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Balto]

Technically, you are not allowed to do shoulder locks in judo. However, in principle, judoka do them all the time.

Americana, kimura, and omoplata are all perfectly fine in judo competition. I have used the kimura (BJJ shoulder lock style) to win in shiai and there were no objections at all.

Surprisingly, there was more of a debate when I used the triangle choke. The ref called it a head scissors. I said "sankaku jime". There was a bit of a debate and finally they decided that it was okay for me to triangle choke people.

 

[KentPeters]

As long as you keep the lock really tight to the body it concentrates more on the elbow, unless your really cranking or you have sloppy technique no ref will break your hold with a DQ ... Ude garami(entangled armlock aka key lock) is a common arm lock in judo so you shouldnt have anything to worry about and the omoplata is sometimes called a shoulder lock if you buck your hips to acheive the submission so instead grab the oponents wrist and lift

 

[SmashiusClay]

It's just an anomaly in the rules, that although they say there's no shoulder locks they allow stuff that is quite obviously targeting the shoulder. I know a referee who trains and coaches at my club and he seems to think it's a bit of a joke.

You can get some trouble with omoplata or kimura if the ref has'nt seen it before, but most let it past. The keylock you'll always get away with round here as its on the kyu grade syllabus for the BJA. If actually had a lot more trouble with bicep crushes than shoulder locks.

 

[Ybot]

It's just an anomaly in the rules, that although they say there's no shoulder locks they allow stuff that is quite obviously targeting the shoulder. I know a referee who trains and coaches at my club and he seems to think it's a bit of a joke.

You can get some trouble with omoplata or kimura if the ref has'nt seen it before, but most let it past. The keylock you'll always get away with round here as its on the kyu grade syllabus for the BJA. If actually had a lot more trouble with bicep crushes than shoulder locks.

Bicept crush actually is an attack on the elbow. Is this technicly legal according to the rules, or is it the oppisit of the kimura/americana- according to the rules legal, but not allowed in compitition.

I have to agree with your friend the ref who thinks the whole thing funny... It's cool it's legal though in comitition, keeps the ground game a little more intresting.

 

[SmashiusClay]

Bicept crush actually is an attack on the elbow. Is this technicly legal according to the rules, or is it the oppisit of the kimura/americana- according to the rules legal, but not allowed in compitition.

I have to agree with your friend the ref who thinks the whole thing funny... It's cool it's legal though in comitition, keeps the ground game a little more intresting.

Bicep attacks are allowed and are sometimes taught as a way to break an opponent's grip for an armbar, its just trying them from another position that some times gives you trouble as a lot of refs may not have seen them before.

 

[Ybot]

So, wow, compression lock on the elbow would be legal in Judo. It's not in BJJ. Has anyone ever gone for that compression lock sweep from spider?

 

[Luther]

Please, keep the thread about shoulder locks.

If I understand correctly, there is a little of confusion in the Judo competition rules. They say shoulder locks are illegal, but then they allow them in combat, at least they allow americana and kimura from side control.

From my personal experience they don't allow the kimura from the guard. They see the arm bent behind the back (more or less) and just stop you.

What's your experience with kimura from the guard?

 

[BJH]

Please, keep the thread about shoulder locks.

If I understand correctly, there is a little of confusion in the Judo competition rules. They say shoulder locks are illegal, but then they allow them in combat, at least they allow americana and kimura from side control.

From my personal experience they don't allow the kimura from the guard. They see the arm bent behind the back (more or less) and just stop you.

What's your experience with kimura from the guard?

That's weird! I thought it was ok to do kimura from the guard.

 

[georgejjr]

That's weird! I thought it was ok to do kimura from the guard.

It is, at least in higher level judo tournaments. Local refs however call strange things sometimes ...

 

[SmashiusClay]

I've never had any compaints about using kimura from guard and have used it in comps, I would say that you need to be careful with pushing the arm up behind the back, as they may then decide its "become" a shoulder lock.

 

[Deleted member 3729]

Shoulder locks are technically illegal

*winks*

 

[azjudoboxer**]

Just about anything in Judo comp comes down to the ref. Some follow a literal interpretation of the RulesBook, some dont