Opinion Should they ban assault weapons?

Should they ban assault weapons?


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His comment was about a shotgun, jeanyus. I'd be fine with a handgun ban if it could actually be enacted with any effectiveness. Pretty much the only reason I need or want a handgun is to defend myself from other people with guns, mostly handguns.

Would you like to discuss the combat effectiveness of shotguns?

I can't speak on shotguns with any real knowledge. But I'm sure others here can, and I'm relatively confident that a well outfitted shotgun could be pretty lethal.

Virginia Tech proved that for the most part... unarmed students will huddle in a corner rather than fight back. So if a guy with a couple pistols could do that, I think a guy with a shotgun wouldn't encounter much resistance either.
 
I think a better solution would be to act as follows:

A. Have a requirement that all schools of a certain size have at least two armed security guards. (The hero-assistant football coach was a part time security guard and died acting as a human shield.)

B. Find a way to stop giving the killers publicity. That has been the main catalyst for hateful lunatics.

C. Much, much more in the way of mental health funds.

That applies to problems with the homeless, broken family structures, and a lot of troubled young people we could be helping out.

Why is the money not there?

D. Some restrictions on AR/AK platform rifles might help.

- Waiting limits of two weeks

- A more extensive background check

- A standard mental competency test with several different versions so psychos have trouble cheating on the system

I am a big 2nd Amendment proponent, but you can definitely have legal oversight of "military style" rifles legally speaking and probably should in a moral sense.

A good compromise would be to allow suppressors, ease the restrictions on SBS weapons, and
I would like to submit to you a few things on the topic.

Mental health- I agree our national mental health programs are not great, and we would prevent some problems if we could address this in some appreciable way. I don't really know how they are funded, so I can't speak to them in a well-informed way. What I can speak to is the administration of the test. Who is supposed to administer it, and to whom? Do I need a doctor's note to buy a gun? I've taken a few psych tests before for the military, and what typically happens is that I fill in the bubble for the true/false questions, a psych talks to me about the ones that are potential flags (I guess things like "Have you ever considered being a florist?" have an associated flag, depending on your answer). As such, do I need my doctor's permission to get a gun? I have an issue with that because doctors are not elected officials, and I don't really like the idea of an unelected official who has no screening for their politics having the ability to govern my access to a Constitutional right. And do I need my medical records to be made available to gun dealers? That's a HIPAA violation, and I still have a Right to Privacy. I shouldn't need to choose between my Right to Privacy and my 2A rights. Would you agree?

Are AR/AK platforms particularly dangerous or used in a preponderance of crimes? Why fixate on these two in particular?
 
there's not enough people killed for congress to do anything... this isn't even on the LV level.. unfortunately it will need to get worse before there's any action if at all..

it's not even a psychiatric or mental health issue.. because if it were.. we would make it harder for mentally ill people to obtain guns..

hell.. we can't even agree to use a terrorist watch list to ban gun buyers..
 
lol


'No one wants to take your guns gais'



'Should we ban this so no one can have them anymore'


Can't make this shit up


<{outtahere}>
 
there's not enough people killed for congress to do anything... this isn't even on the LV level.. unfortunately it will need to get worse before there's any action if at all..

it's not even a psychiatric or mental health issue.. because if it were.. we would make it harder for mentally ill people to obtain guns..

hell.. we can't even agree to use a terrorist watch list to ban gun buyers..



Blame the very untrustworthy reputation of the Government for a lot of this.
 
I would like to submit to you a few things on the topic.

Mental health- I agree our national mental health programs are not great, and we would prevent some problems if we could address this in some appreciable way. I don't really know how they are funded, so I can't speak to them in a well-informed way. What I can speak to is the administration of the test. Who is supposed to administer it, and to whom? Do I need a doctor's note to buy a gun? I've taken a few psych tests before for the military, and what typically happens is that I fill in the bubble for the true/false questions, a psych talks to me about the ones that are potential flags (I guess things like "Have you ever considered being a florist?" have an associated flag, depending on your answer). As such, do I need my doctor's permission to get a gun? I have an issue with that because doctors are not elected officials, and I don't really like the idea of an unelected official who has no screening for their politics having the ability to govern my access to a Constitutional right. And do I need my medical records to be made available to gun dealers? That's a HIPAA violation, and I still have a Right to Privacy. I shouldn't need to choose between my Right to Privacy and my 2A rights. Would you agree?

Are AR/AK platforms particularly dangerous or used in a preponderance of crimes? Why fixate on these two in particular?

there are definitely people who i have talked to that i mention that can't do certain activities.. often times it's restricting driving because of epilepsy and have had patient's reported to the DMV.. but i have told patient's family they should consider removing guns in the house.. i remember this demented patient who was having active hallucinations running around his house pointing his gun at his hallucinations and scaring the shit out of his wife.. i politely told his wife to go home and get that gun out of the house since the patient was hospitalized

fucking retards are trying to make it harder for physcians to do our jobs.. at least FL's court got one right

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo...ing-doctors-from-discussing-guns-with-patient

of note.. physicians are mandated by their duty to warn of any homicidal issues to a 3rd party regardless of patient privacy
 
you're right, I know nothing about it.
I'm quite confused about what function the AR-15 serves in society, apart from being a great tool for killing large amounts of people. care to explain?
It's great for pest control like coyotes and shit if you have a ranch/farm, it's the gun of choice for hog hunting where there is no limit and the whole point is to drop as many of them as you can cheaply without ruining too much meat in the process and it's the rifle of choice for 3-gun competitions.
 
there are definitely people who i have talked to that i mention that can't do certain activities.. often times it's restricting driving because of epilepsy and have had patient's reported to the DMV.. but i have told patient's family they should consider removing guns in the house.. i remember this demented patient who was having active hallucinations running around his house pointing his gun at his hallucinations and scaring the shit out of his wife.. i politely told his wife to go home and get that gun out of the house since the patient was hospitalized

fucking retards are trying to make it harder for physcians to do our jobs.. at least FL's court got one right

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo...ing-doctors-from-discussing-guns-with-patient

of note.. physicians are mandated by their duty to warn of any homicidal issues to a 3rd party regardless of patient privacy
I am all for doctors discussing the potential dangers of firearms with their patients and/or their families. That's totally reasonable, especially because some people aren't really well-educated on the effects of diseases. As you mentioned, active hallucinations and firearms are probably a pretty bad combination, so people should take responsibility for themselves. Either remove the firearms from the home, put them in a locked safe that the patient doesn't have access to, etc. Having a right implies a certain level of responsibility, and that's where I think we tend to drop the ball in this country. We are really bad about understanding that freedom has both a light and dark side.

The issue really arises because, like it or not, the right of the people to keep and bear arms is a constitutionally-protected right. Driving simply isn't. While I respect a physician's level of schooling and education, being a doctor doesn't make that individual an expert on guns. As such, I don't think it's appropriate to give them what effectively amounts to a veto on an individual's Constitutional rights due to their expertise in an unrelated field. But adding an expert medical opinion to a patient on their condition should be allowed. Edit: We also run into certain legal problems because you're punishing people who haven't committed a crime yet. Like it or not, that's still a pretty big deal. Punishment and limitations on freedom mostly need to be applied after the fact, and I think that has its merits as a legal framework.

Yes, privacy is relegated to second-place for doctors, lawyers, and religious clergy when another person's safety becomes in jeopardy. It's worth adding that a person who already has committed a murder and admits it to their lawyer or religious clergy has protection from disclosure of that information. I can't imagine why you would tell your doctor that you killed somebody, so I'm not sure if that's protected or why it would be...
 
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I appreciate your response. As a gun owner and someone with a lot of experience using them in both private and professional capacities, I have my own views on the subject. I will use those views to address some of your points below.

High capacity mags: I wouldn't have an issue with banning them, but I think it's just highly ineffective. Most pistol mags won't have more than 15 rounds, but the size of the magazine tends to be dependent on the gun and caliber of the bullet. It's quite common to see 15-round mags with Glocks or pistols chambered for 9mm. For a 1911, a .45 caliber pistol, typically, you will see 6-8 rounds in those mags. I haven't seen any data to suggest that larger capacity handguns are used more often or more effectively than say, a 1911. Since long-guns make up 3% of the murder rate when a firearm is used, limiting their magazine capacity probably wouldn't have much of an effect. For what it's worth, I went through a course where I had to change out one 30-round mag for another and effectively put a shot on target in under 2 seconds. So changing mags is not inherently difficult. Finally, at the end of the day, it's a box with a spring. Manufacturing them with 3D printers isn't difficult, and controlling the production of these is unlikely to occur. I guess that what I am saying is that I think implementing this is a lot of work to produce virtually no meaningful gain, so maybe we can use our time and effort in a better way in order to reduce violence.

CC licenses: This is a really hard one to address because it varies so much by state. When I got my Texas one, I had to go through a 8-hour class, show competency on a pistol, undergo a background check, give them my fingerprints, and apply. It was a pretty lengthy process that took about 2 months (although there was a backlog at the time). When I was in Pennsylvania, I had to go down to the courthouse, stand in line, fill out some paperwork, and that was it. I was done in about 20 minutes. I think training is great, and I am all for having high standards. Despite feeling this way, I haven't seen a clear linkage between states that have really high standards and low crime rates where a gun is a factor versus states that have lower standards and higher gun crimes.

Waiting periods: Some states don't have waiting periods. I have never waited for a gun in my life (other than the 10-20 minutes it takes to do a background check while I am at the counter). I just don't see how they'll be helpful, and I haven't seen any data to support that they are. If you have some good data, please share it with me.

Databases: This has a bunch of second and third-order effects. To have an accurate database, you would need all existing gun owners to self-report. You would also need to end all person-to-person sales, any gifts, etc. And to what end? Please elaborate why you think this might be good or helpful, as I'd like to hear your point of view. As it seems now, this is a lot like the High Capacity Mags thing: A lot of work for negligible yield.

Income inequality: I think that this gets at something very real. While I don't think that people are totally motivated out of desperation, I think changing things up in places that have high amounts of crime where a gun is used would be helpful. Most cities in America are seeing reduced levels of violent crime in general, so this is good! Something is obviously working, although the pace is a little slow for most people's temperaments most of the time. Some still have a long way to go in reducing this crime, but the only one where things are really bad is Chicago. They also have a lot of issues with drugs and insufficient policing (expressed in numbers of LEOs and/or their effectiveness relative to other departments), at least in the South Side of Chicago (where virtually all the crime occurs). I think cleaning up the area is probably the best solution, although that's going to be a slow process. If we use a Relief, Recovery, Reform model, I think we need to immediately clamp down on the crime and lock up the bad guys/those who want to be criminals (let's face it, some people consciously choose to be violent criminals because they think it will make them rich, they think it's romantic because they've seen too many movies or something, or don't want to be proficient at things that are productive to society), whereas others enter into criminality because of its availability or because they don't see other options as meaningful chances to build a future. Once you can get a little bit of order, you need to rebuild some of the property to raise the property values of those neighborhoods so that people want to live there, and work to raise levels of education and bring in businesses that will create avenues for those educated people to enter into. It's going to be a little bit stick and a little bit carrot.

I hope that this maybe helps move the dialogue along.
Thanks for a thoughtful response! Sherdog is a pretty pro-2A place, and it's hard to give an unpopular opinion without getting beaten down.

FWIW, I do own guns and I'm not completely ignorant to the terminology that many people seem to get caught up on. I'm not an expert by any means, but I understand the difference between a pistol with a single stack magazine and double stack magazine, for instance, or that a Ruger 14 is just as deadly as an AR-15, but only one is considered an assault rifle. MA has 10 round limits on pistol magazines, which sucks as an owner, but I get it. After a suicide scare with a close friend, I've been soul searching and strongly leaning towards selling my guns. I do not practice often enough and I'm statistically more likely to kill myself or someone I love than to ever have to use them to defend myself. Others might not share this opinion and I'm fine with that.

I don't have time to go point by point, but I just want to say that I understand that there are a lot of complications with enacting any legislation.
re: waiting periods, I've seen arguments that they either have some slight benefits or no effect. Here's a study I linked in another response
http://www.pnas.org/content/114/46/12162

People demanding evidence that laws proposed are effective is reasonable, but as you mentioned, the laws are so different from state to state and executed so differently from county to county that its very difficult to say what is and what isn't effective. Then you have to take into account that a law that might, say, prohibit the sale of handgun magazines greater than 10 rounds but don't touch magazines made before the date of implementation would have to be in place for a decade before a real statistical change might be noticeable, only to have it reversed after a year. In short, you'll never get a satisfactory answer that a gun law is effective or not without a big asterisks next to it. I'm fully aware that is a big challenge when trying to convince someone if a law is reasonable or not and I don't have a good answer to that.
 
lol


'No one wants to take your guns gais'



'Should we ban this so no one can have them anymore'


Can't make this shit up


<{outtahere}>

What's the problem? Banning future sales of a product isn't the same as taking away property you already lawfully own.
 
I am all for doctors discussing the potential dangers of firearms with their patients and/or their families. That's totally reasonable, especially because some people aren't really well-educated on the effects of diseases. As you mentioned, active hallucinations and firearms are probably a pretty bad combination, so people should take responsibility for themselves. Either remove the firearms from the home, put them in a locked safe that the patient doesn't have access to, etc. Having a right implies a certain level of responsibility, and that's where I think we tend to drop the ball in this country. We are really bad about understanding that freedom has both a light and dark side.

The issue really arises because, like it or not, the right of the people to keep and bear arms is a constitutionally-protected right. Driving simply isn't. While I respect a physician's level of schooling and education, being a doctor doesn't make that individual an expert on guns. As such, I don't think it's appropriate to give them what effectively amounts to a veto on an individual's Constitutional rights due to their expertise in an unrelated field. But adding an expert medical opinion to a patient on their condition should be allowed.

Yes, privacy is relegated to second-place for doctors, lawyers, and religious clergy when another person's safety becomes in jeopardy. It's worth adding that a person who already has committed a murder and admits it to their lawyer or religious clergy has protection from disclosure of that information. I can't imagine why you would tell your doctor that you killed somebody, so I'm not sure if that's protected or why it would be...

to be fair.. i'm actually pretty pro-gun and 2A and enjoy shooting paper targets and clay whenever the chance arises.. there just needs to be some sense of gun restriction to demented, mentally ill and people on the terrorist watch list..

as for the last point.. physcians have a duty to warn.. see below

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarasoff_v._Regents_of_the_University_of_California
https://www.casebriefs.com/blog/law...rasoff-v-regents-of-university-of-california/
 
The problem with the gun debate is the anti-gun crowd seemingly have zero knowledge about guns. Assault weapons? What's an assault weapon?

assault weapon vs aggravated assault weapon?
 
to be fair.. i'm actually pretty pro-gun and 2A and enjoy shooting paper targets and clay whenever the chance arises.. there just needs to be some sense of gun restriction to demented, mentally ill and people on the terrorist watch list..

as for the last point.. physcians have a duty to warn.. see below

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarasoff_v._Regents_of_the_University_of_California
https://www.casebriefs.com/blog/law...rasoff-v-regents-of-university-of-california/
I don't like using the terrorist watchlist and here is why:
You get put on it with no notice, so you've essentially lost a right without being proven guilty of anything.

At least when someone is convicted of a felony they are TOLD they have lost their right to a firearm. Terrorist watchlist you're placed on it with no notice (that I know of admittedly) and then you have to prove you are innocent/not a terrorist to be taken off.
 
so 24 inch ar15s are safe?
Safe? I didn't say that. I only specified that it would be safer than a carbine version with a 14.5" barrel for the reasons I listed like arc of fire and ability to conceal. A longer barrel would have a higher rate of velocity though. The poster I was responding to was attempting to classify an assault rifle as something with a barrel over 16 inches and semi auto. I would argue under 16 inches like a carbine version would be better suited to meet the urban "assault" rifle definition. The U.S. Army defines assault rifles as "short, compact, selective-fire weapons that fire a cartridge intermediate in power between submachine gun and rifle cartridges. The standard civilian AR-15 actually doesn't meet this criteria as it doesn't have select fire. Just safe and Pew.... Not Pew, Pew, Pew.

pew-aero-precision-inc-no-pew-pew-pew-pew-pew-10019725.png
 
to be fair.. i'm actually pretty pro-gun and 2A and enjoy shooting paper targets and clay whenever the chance arises.. there just needs to be some sense of gun restriction to demented, mentally ill and people on the terrorist watch list..

as for the last point.. physcians have a duty to warn.. see below

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarasoff_v._Regents_of_the_University_of_California
https://www.casebriefs.com/blog/law...rasoff-v-regents-of-university-of-california/

There's no due process involved with being on the terrorist watch list or having a Social Security payee, though. If there's an individual right to own a handgun for lawful purposes (protection) in one's own home, then there needs to be due process when curbing or removing that right.
 
Thanks for a thoughtful response! Sherdog is a pretty pro-2A place, and it's hard to give an unpopular opinion without getting beaten down.

FWIW, I do own guns and I'm not completely ignorant to the terminology that many people seem to get caught up on. I'm not an expert by any means, but I understand the difference between a pistol with a single stack magazine and double stack magazine, for instance, or that a Ruger 14 is just as deadly as an AR-15, but only one is considered an assault rifle. MA has 10 round limits on pistol magazines, which sucks as an owner, but I get it. After a suicide scare with a close friend, I've been soul searching and strongly leaning towards selling my guns. I do not practice often enough and I'm statistically more likely to kill myself or someone I love than to ever have to use them to defend myself. Others might not share this opinion and I'm fine with that.

I don't have time to go point by point, but I just want to say that I understand that there are a lot of complications with enacting any legislation.
re: waiting periods, I've seen arguments that they either have some slight benefits or no effect. Here's a study I linked in another response
http://www.pnas.org/content/114/46/12162

People demanding evidence that laws proposed are effective is reasonable, but as you mentioned, the laws are so different from state to state and executed so differently from county to county that its very difficult to say what is and what isn't effective. Then you have to take into account that a law that might, say, prohibit the sale of handgun magazines greater than 10 rounds but don't touch magazines made before the date of implementation would have to be in place for a decade before a real statistical change might be noticeable, only to have it reversed after a year. In short, you'll never get a satisfactory answer that a gun law is effective or not without a big asterisks next to it. I'm fully aware that is a big challenge when trying to convince someone if a law is reasonable or not and I don't have a good answer to that.
I understand the feeling. I have some other opinions that are relatively unpopular, and there are no shortage of people to start slinging insults. Belittling another person really does nothing to try and change the mind of the person that you are talking to. I think it's done more for the speaker's own benefit, to try and motivate like-minded persons, or perhaps silence other voices of opposition via bullying.

I won't say anything on the topic of your own conscience. If you feel that it's in your best interests to sell your firearms, you are 100% free to do so. Each of us should be free to act in accordance with our conscience, as I think that's a fundamental thing about being an American. I must admit that I'm a huge fan of the rugged individual, as I think that's truly the spirit of our nation's founding.

I do take some issue with that's study's methods, as they said, "We compared murder stats in states that had cooling off periods versus those who didn't." That's looking at a single data point in a vacuum, which probably isn't very useful. I understand, and as you aptly pointed out, controlling for other variables is highly difficult, particularly when there is such a turnover of policies and their enforcement throughout the subject environments.

As you mentioned in your earlier post, I think the best and most effective thing that we can do is eliminate causes of crime. Of course, we will always have statistical outliers (even when those outliers result in things like the Las Vegas shooter), but the best thing that we can do is target the average, run-of-the-mill murderer before he or she commits the crime.
 
I don't like using the terrorist watchlist and here is why:
You get put on it with no notice, so you've essentially lost a right without being proven guilty of anything.

At least when someone is convicted of a felony they are TOLD they have lost their right to a firearm. Terrorist watchlist you're placed on it with no notice (that I know of admittedly) and then you have to prove you are innocent/not a terrorist to be taken off.

no list is going to be complete or always accurate.. that shouldn't be a reason to not limit guns to people on the terrorist watch list..

incidentally.. i think people who aren't involve in a violent crime should have access to guns after they serve their time..
 
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