Should school kids be grouped by mental ability?

[Bay Area]

That being said , if a child is truly learning disabled, they should have special help based on the degree of their disability..maybe just additional after school help in some cases...in more extreme cases yes, an entirely separate curriculum....

Yes but how do you seperate the stupid kids without hurting their self esteem? Growing up, the separation started by 2nd grade. The teachers tried to mask what was going on, but we all knew we were being classified according to our mental ability.

 

[ehtheist]

Lol, you just spew bullshit. You are fucking racist and I called your shit. It was plain in your post. I grew up owning 2 pairs of fucking jeans and lived in a town that had actual dirt fucking roads and my parents were supportive as in if I failed a class I was punished. But I still made it to AP Biology and physics.

You can blab all your dumb bullshit, but you got exposed. Deal with it.

So you're taking the "I'm not going to pay attention to the content of your message - YOU'RE A RACCCCIIISSSTT!" approach? As you like it.

That's good for you - and it's also true for a lot of people. The problem is, that's an exception which defies the statistical norm. On average there is a *huge* correlation between financial security and success in school. Simply put, parents who come from stable backgrounds - regardless of color - are more likely to be educated themselves, more likely to be willing and able to help their kids with school through the grades, more likely to be able to afford tutors, more likely to be around to parent their kids in the right direction as they don't have to work extra hours, etc etc. When you have kids coming in from a poor neighborhood in the same school as kids coming in from a financially stable one, usually the ones from the poor neighborhood lag behind. It's only a matter of time, with the OP proposal, until you've got a largely black "stupid" class and a largely white "smart" class, and pictures of that shit hit social media. Then it begins...

But again, as you like it. I'm just a silly old racist, after all Just like the people who put out this super racist report...

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2001/inequality/6.asp

And like the people who have put out reports like it for decades.. Just a whole slew of racists. Racism everywhere!

 

[Bay Area]

The problem with separating kids after intelligence is that people tend to gauge themselves after their surroundings. Removing high-achievers from "middle" or "lower" classes tend to have the effect of lowering the performances among the middle and lower class people. They adjust themselves after the best they see, if the highest they see is rather average, they only really strive for that (it is the "roof" so to say). However, if there are smart people around, a new loftiness of intelligence is opened for them, and while they may not reached that level themselves, they will at least strive to adjust themselves to that reality, improving themselves by at least trying to close the distance between themselves and the smarter kids. Not to mention the trickle-down effect that smart students tend to have, pollinating the others with intelligence just by their sayings and statements and such.

It's a theme of study in pedagogy.

It could have the opposite effect. Where the stupid kids feel even worse because the smarter kids are constantly getting all the accolades. Next thing you know, the stupid kid is barely grasping chapter 2, while the rest of the class is on chapter 10. Frustration could build.

 

[europe1]

It could have the opposite effect. Where the stupid kids feel even worse because the smarter kids are constantly getting all the accolades. Next thing you know, the stupid kid is barely grasping chapter 2, while the rest of the class is on chapter 10. Frustration could build.

I'm quoting from academic pedagogic literature that has done studies on that phenomenon. But since my sources are in Swedish naming them wouldn't be much help. I'm thinking about academians like Nihad Bunar for example.

 

[Bay Area]

Probably.

My daughter and a few of her friends are a bit more advanced than most of her class but they have to sit through the most basic shit over and over because most of the other kids in her class are stupid.

How do you cope as a parent? I mean it can't feel good knowing your kid isn't being challenged properly

 

[Devout Pessimist]

So you're taking the "I'm not going to pay attention to the content of your message - YOU'RE A RACCCCIIISSSTT!" approach? As you like it.

That's good for you - and it's also true for a lot of people. The problem is, that's an exception which defies the statistical norm. On average there is a *huge* correlation between financial security and success in school. Simply put, parents who come from stable backgrounds - regardless of color - are more likely to be educated themselves, more likely to be willing and able to help their kids with school through the grades, more likely to be able to afford tutors, more likely to be around to parent their kids in the right direction as they don't have to work extra hours, etc etc. When you have kids coming in from a poor neighborhood in the same school as kids coming in from a financially stable one, usually the ones from the poor neighborhood lag behind. It's only a matter of time, with the OP proposal, until you've got a largely black "stupid" class and a largely white "smart" class, and pictures of that shit hit social media. Then it begins...

But again, as you like it. I'm just a silly old racist, after all Just like the people who put out this super racist report...

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2001/inequality/6.asp

And like the people who have put out reports like it for decades.. Just a whole slew of racists. Racism everywhere!

 

[Strange Shadows]

seems like this sort of thing -- what you've described in the OP -- has already happened, as other posters have pointed out, so i don't believe there's all that much to discuss. @europe1 makes some good points, too. a community of learning does far more good than separating everyone based on . . . whatever number you wish to assign to students, especially when you consider the different talents indv. bring to the table. and special placement is made for those considered truly gifted (academically), so i feel as though students have a shot at moving up.

relating my personal experience from high-school to now [this topic]: i was in special ed my first year of h.s., and before that i was in other programs, too.

you find yourself marginalized, living day-to-day with this foreboding fear you'll never make it anywhere, all the while your classmates and friends seem to be experiencing life. the majority of teachers you come across have a lot to deal with, and are left without proper resources, which causes them to give up a bit [generalization]. . . i would go to school and literally slap box other students.

idk, i just think separation isn't the best response. but i am biased a bit by my personal experience.

 

[NoGoodNamesLeft]

as an expert in thyis field i say yes
im in grad school

 

[ehtheist]

as an expert in thyis field i say yes
im in grad school

Saying it like "im in grad school" really doesn't give observers confidence in your claim.

 

[Strange Shadows]

i believe him

 

[JSN]

me too. I dunno why, but I do.

 

[SSOTO]

Anyone else remember those grade school math tests from back in the day where if you passed it you moved on to a new color? They were probably different for every school district but there was always some poor dummy who could never get off the plain white sheet. We were some competitive sonsabiches in the 80s...

 

[JonnyRingo84]

this is a tough tough tough issue to wrestle with.

the problem with grouping kids is, where ever you set the bar at, the kid may reach it. what if you set the bar lower than they could actually get to? this happens all the time. i can say from experience teaching, that you cannot judge someone's ability based on their appearance or behavior, but its human nature to do that. teachers and counselors will often let their prejudices decide where a kid should be, and what theyre capable of before theyre proven wrong by the kid's work. and whats more, some kids are shitty at one thing, and amazing at others.

on the flip side, ive taught a class where you had a girl rightfully applying to stanford, and a kid that could barely read in the same room. from a teaching perspective, its hard as shit to create lessons that fit both of those kids in the same class. there are all sorts of behavioral issues and social issues to mixing classes like that, as well.

 

[Devout Pessimist]

School kids should be grouped by mental stability.

 

[snakedafunky]

*their, dummy

JK I have heard that about jerryland. Haha it seems extreme because it seems like kids are being pegged as laborers from the age of like ten, and here in die USA that is considered like the worst thing ever.

yeah some people make the same argument in Germany and I understand it. But you could also see it from a point that slower kids will never have good marks if they get the same test as the smarter ones. And maybe they lose a bit of motivation. While the smarter kids might not learn the same speed they could.
But the education system in Germany is different. Lets say you go on to make an apprenticeship you could after the 4 year go back to school again and make a technical degree sort of the same as a US Bachelor. While at the same time still work part time. That option is very popular. My friend was on the middle school made an apprenticeship and went to make his an MBA in computer science. Took him like 10 years total.
The system is definitely set up that you can succeed via different ways, its of course better do be in the best school you still have all options available. In think its a bit different in the US were it might be unfair to separate kids early on.

 

[ralphc1]

And coincidentally the garbage men are making more money than the college graduates.

Many of the garbage men are college graduates. Many trucks have one person operating them because they are equipped with lifts to dump the containers. The person has to drive the truck and that requires a commercial drivers license. You can't have any drug or alcohol related charges on your record.

 

[JSN]

yeah some people make the same argument in Germany and I understand it. But you could also see it from a point that slower kids will never have good marks if they get the same test as the smarter ones. And maybe they lose a bit of motivation. While the smarter kids might not learn the same speed they could.
But the education system in Germany is different. Lets say you go on to make an apprenticeship you could after the 4 year go back to school again and make a technical degree sort of the same as a US Bachelor. While at the same time still work part time. That option is very popular. My friend was on the middle school made an apprenticeship and went to make his an MBA in computer science. Took him like 10 years total.
The system is definitely set up that you can succeed via different ways, its of course better do be in the best school you still have all options available. In think its a bit different in the US were it might be unfair to separate kids early on.

I think we need to change our values in America to a certain degree. People perceive trades as being crappy jobs, but IMO the average (skilled) tradesperson is often better paid, better trained, and uses better problem solving skills than the average white collar worker.

So now you have people actually getting paid money to do human resources. WTF is human resources? What do they do worthwhile? No one knows.

 

[ralphc1]

I think we need to change our values in America to a certain degree. People perceive trades as being crappy jobs, but IMO the average (skilled) tradesperson is often better paid, better trained, and uses better problem solving skills than the average white collar worker.

So now you have people actually getting paid money to do human resources. WTF is human resources? What do they do worthwhile? No one knows.

They do what every layer of management does, insulate upper layers of management from any work or responsibility.

 

[ralphc1]

When I went to grade school, there were enough students that there were 2 classes per grade. We were slowly sorted out into the faster and slower learners. Reading was a big part of that. Most of us in the advanced class learned to read at an early age. It was painful to sit in first grade listening to students reading and trying to read. I could usually read the whole assignment before some students finished a paragraph. I would hold my book upside down to read just so it would take a little longer to read. As the teacher walked around she would call on different students to continue. When she saw my book upside down she called on me and was standing alongside me as I read with the book upside down.

Some students need more help reading because the ability to read is the basis for learning. Do we hold some students back while the others catch up? Do we flunk the slower students and make them repeat the grade?

I went to school when the SRA systems were just starting to be used by schools. Students would read the lesson and take the test on their own and, depending on their performance, advance to the next color or do more lessons in the color they were in. I went through all of the second grade lessons before the Christmas break. They had me go to the third grade classroom to use the ones there. Then I didn't have many left to do when I got into third grade. SRA had some advanced lessons by then. By fifth grade we were pretty much divided into normal and advanced classes.

 

[Legumes]

I was grouped up with others based on performance starting from kindergarten. I believe it's perfectly acceptable to place people based on performance. In my experience, being in a class with peers that challenged me made me try harder to keep up with or best them.