Should pure strikers grapple in order to improve their stand up?

[thehairyfairy]

Right guys obviously due to the dramatic nature of the end of the fight, a lot of people are overlooking the fact that Anderson was pretty much dominated in terms of striking against a guy who is fundamentally a wrestler.

The only thing I could see was:

-Anderson was not moving his head w/low hands.
-Anderson was not managing his distancing.
-Weidman had better timing/distancing in both fights.

What do you guys think? Does wrestling (even in pure striking) supplement stand up? Should strikers (even boxers) look to incorporate wrestling to learn how to manage distance more effectively?

Personally I believe grappling and striking are not two contrasting styles of martial art but rather should be considered as complementary even symbiotic, even for guys training in pure stand up/grappling styles.

 

[SummerStriker]

It's hard never to end up in a clinch and better not to be afraid of it all the time. Strikers can dominate in the clinch by punching the wrestler in the face.

 

[thehairyfairy]

It's hard never to end up in a clinch and better not to be afraid of it all the time. Strikers can dominate in the clinch by punching the wrestler in the face.

But usually that results in a takedown, understanding unders/overs would result in being in better positioning to throw strikes in a clinch as opposed to just throwing carelessly and hoping something connects before you get taken down.

 

[Harukaze]

Yes yes yes yes yes. Judo tremendously helped my Muay Thai and karate, AND vice versa.

 

[Scrody]

Uhh yes

 

[pseudo genki]

Of course. It builds muscular endurance (as opposed to cardiovascular endurance) and allows one to strike with more confidence since the threat of being clinched or taken down has less influence over everything else one does.

As for the Weidman-Silva fight, I'd have to rewatch that sequence, but I seem to recall Weidman chose to eat a knee to the body in exchange for a chance to hit Silva behind the jaw/ear with a right hook while Silva was on one leg and unable to absorb it. Weidman had the option to do so because Silva wasn't able to break down his posture as much as when they clinched in the first fight. That just goes to show that someone who controls posture in the clinch and who is able to grapple for position without fear of going to the ground can use their grappling to outstrike a much more decorated striker.

 

[Steve08]

I just don't see how it's inadvisable to, as a striker, have an idea of what you are doing on the ground and especially the bottom even if it's merely with real basic stuff like being hard to flatten out while on the bottom, creating space for the hips with which to escape, knowing basic escapes from the bottom in addition to counters to the counters to said escapes, and having fast, well-drilled technical stand-ups in the event that you're placed in an unideal situation (see: are taken down). Basically, I don't think anyone can deny that part of being good on the bottom is your ability to decide whether or not a man can keep you there, and I strongly feel that most of a striker's grappling training should be tailored towards that end (just being a total bitch to hold down) until, of course, he develops a level of proficiency in them sufficient enough for him to explore other ground skills like fancy DLR guard shit or whatever, I dunno.

I feel where the idea of strikers trying to learn grappling truly goes wrong is when a striker feels as though he will be able to fully develop a steam-rolling top game within 6 months or whatever because it's not as if he's going to have as much time to develop a super complete and multi-faceted ground game compared to a dude with years and years of grappling experience; something I feel bears noting mostly for the reason that it can be presumed that a striker who focuses mainly on top game when training other skills is probably gonna have a lackluster guard due to there only being so many hours in the day, and I just don't see how it's worse to develop confidence in guard work or one's ability to just find an opening then stand up since as a striker it is a far more likely scenario for you to be taken down as opposed to getting your own takedown.

and allows one to strike with more confidence since the threat of being clinched or taken down has less influence over everything else one does.

This is really important and I couldn't agree more.

 

[xP]

Yes. GSP has mentioned that he did a lot of what he called shootboxing sparring. Always using his striking and his opponents striking mistakes to set up takedowns. Kickboxing while both guys are looking for TD's. Which is pretty much what shootboxing as a sport is.

 

[Azam]

You need grappling as a striker - if you can dictate where the fights take place, the advantage remains in your court.

As a striker it's important because to be able to keep striking you need to be able to keep your balance it's as simple as that - wrestling/judo (knowing how to keep balance) takes more importance I feel for a striker than say newaza (submissions) which is secondary.

 

[Bang Rachan]

[YT]oGX83ryedhw#t=160[/YT]

You see GGG doing some wrestling here at 2:40.

 

[Pheraxis]

Even stand-up involves a degree of grappling; such as the clinch, and I guess you could say takedowns. Having experience in grappling will not only prepare a fighter, but will also leave the fighter feeling more confident that they can dictate the match - instead of feeling 'like a sitting duck' when the opponent has you in the mount. Today most fighters are well rounded. By training in various aspects of MMA you can feel comfortable when your opponent trades strikes and also when your opponent takes you to the ground.

 

[thehairyfairy]

I was more so referring to an example of a pure stand up striker who grapples in order to improve his/her striking/distancing/timing, like the GGG video (great video btw made me lol), it's pretty obvious in a MMA situation you'd have to train all facets of "fighting" or martial arts.

 

[Sano]

The only only thing I might fear is getting stiffer by primarily the wrestling. Seems like what mostly seperates MMA fighters/wrestlers from boxers is that looseness that boxers have.

I'm not sure it is a reasonable fear though. And obviously, after a grappling exchange, your body tenses up a bit and that might be what I'm picking up on.

I think in moderation it will defintely help your clinch and control game though.

 

[Pearse Shields]

What do you guys think? Does wrestling (even in pure striking) supplement stand up? Should strikers (even boxers) look to incorporate wrestling to learn how to manage distance more effectively?

Don't quite agree with you there. I did jujitsu for a couple of years before I started Muay Thai. I don't really find there's much carryover at all.

 

[Pheraxis]

I was more so referring to an example of a pure stand up striker who grapples in order to improve his/her striking/distancing/timing, like the GGG video (great video btw made me lol), it's pretty obvious in a MMA situation you'd have to train all facets of "fighting" or martial arts.

Oh, I see what you mean. I'm currently training in boxing and Jiu-Jitsu, but don't find that grappling really supplements my stand-up. If I were to compete in boxing, and only boxing, I would dedicate the majority of my time to boxing, not a grappling art.

 

[BadassMMAdude***]

Dafuq are you talking about, Anderson is a BJJ black belt. Weidman is just a badass, nothing less nothing wrestling background shit.

If you wanna get better at kickboxing, kickbox

 

[thehairyfairy]

Don't quite agree with you there. I did jujitsu for a couple of years before I started Muay Thai. I don't really find there's much carryover at all.

Fair enough, jujitsu as in japenese jujitsu? And idk but whenever I seem to wrestle, my MT sparring seems to be sharper, even boxing I tend to roll a lot better and just manage distance generally.

Oh, I see what you mean. I'm currently training in boxing and Jiu-Jitsu, but don't find that grappling really supplements my stand-up. If I were to compete in boxing, and only boxing, I would dedicate the majority of my time to boxing, not a grappling art.

Oh for sure, I'm not saying if you're boxing say 10 hours a week that you should split it 50-50 for grappling but maybe even 1-2 hours of drilling and working distancing and your clinch game.

Dafuq are you talking about, Anderson is a BJJ black belt. Weidman is just a badass, nothing less nothing wrestling background shit.

If you wanna get better at kickboxing, kickbox

Strong post content to name ratio, because belts are won by being a badass? LOL. Being a BJJ blackbelt does not give you some special power and protects you from getting taken down or beaten. I refuse to address you over the semantics of the issue because you are clearly a troll.

 

[Marbig]

I do BJJ and boxing and there really isn't much crossover.

That being said, I do feel more confident about my skillset now that I know how to defend myself should the fight ever go the ground. Plus, both arts are a joy to practice.

 

[Gambledub]

i think people comparing their own m.a experience are thinking about this wrong. i think in alot of cases its not grappling, but rather takedown threat. you see it in fights like weidman/silva or hendricks/kampman where on paper the better striker is k.o'd usually as they try to avoid the takedown. i think it is the wrestling pedigree of the fighters that make this happen.

think about it, if your purely a striker, you want the fight on the feet. if you are fighting a good wrestler/takedown artist and they shoot a double, how do you defend it - hands down press away or get underhooks while you sprawl. the problem becomes when is the wrestler shooting a double and when are they just level changing.

in my opinion its the level change that becomes the biggest threat to a striker when facing a better wrestler. off the level change a wrestler can shoot in or come over the top with a power punch.

i think this is just the advancing of tactics in mma, it used to be a big fear of strikers to be trapped against the cage by a wrestler, now we see many strikers using the cage for tdd. the half guard used to be a dominant top position but we are seeing more bjj guys use it as a sweeping base. gnp guys used to trap people against the cage to land shots, then they started wall walking to stand up. i think alot of strikers are still stuck with the sprawl and brawl tactics of the 2000's era of mma where wrestlers have figured out a counter strategy and strikers have not evolved with a new one.

 

[thehairyfairy]

.

I think you misunderstood my question, I'm not talking about grappling for strikers in MMA, I'm talking about grappling for strikers in a pure grappling art i.e. say someone like mayweather starts drilling underhooks/overhooks escapes etc..