Should knees be allowed to the head/face on a grounded opponent?

[The Rivv]

In the Centre of the cage? Yes. If your opponent is up against the fence? ABSOLUTELY NOT! This isn’t pride, you can’t try to escape through the ropes. If the fighter is touching the cage while “downed” it should be illegal, because they have nowhere to go and are likely already dazed.


But absolutely under no circumstances should stomps to the body or head be allowed! I’ve seen way too many vids on r/fightporn or places like HoodSite to know how dangerous stomps can be. I have literally actually seen human lives expire from an opponent stomping them while on the ground.

 

[The Rivv]

yes and headbutts should also be allowed

Do you want every second fight to end by doctors stoppage? You know as soon as that happens I’d say a good 30% of the UFC roster quit, then a further 40-60% quit after it impedes their career due to stoppages and cuts reopening every fight.

 

[immyaxl]

Should this be legal?

Hell yes

 

[Pressure Project]

Nothing was keeping Sterling from standing up except milking the rule.

Hands up. Both balls of his feet on the ground.

 

[MCS]

I think a compromise wtih something like "back touching the canvas" could work (although "back" should probably include stomach and side, or whatever, as long as it's clearly defined that the fighter is actually down and prone and unable to easily move or defend).

I mean, if a fighter drops or rolls on to his back, he'd risk giving up a dominant position, whereas a fighter just putting a hand or knee down while trying to clinch or work for a TD doesn't have that same risk.

It's better than this knee to ground game. But BJJ guys get a lot of advantages with current rules. No soccer kicks or stomps. No knees to head on the ground. These rules lead to a lot of silliness. If you gas you can just butt scoot to avoid the beating on the feet. Of course lose points, but bad to watch for the viewer.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

Absolutely a valid technique you think in a real fight an opponent cares how many points of contact you have with the ground

You think in a real fight your opponent isn't going to be using a knife or gun because it's against the rules? MMA is a sport, not a real fight. In real fights human are primarily weapon users (and have been for a couple hundred thousand years -- its why we're at the top of the food chain instead of still being bear and tiger food). Human with gun or even spear hunts the tiger. Human unarmed is tiger prey. That's how real fights work.

The question is what makes the best rules for the sport, not what's best in a real fight, because what works best in a real fight is a gun (or knife or whatever weapon you can make on the fly).

Me, I think Yan's knee should be legal (but it wasn't so he deserved to lose for throwing it), but knees and stomps shouldn't be. But that's because I think the grounded knee is too easy to abuse, and its not much different than a knee to a standing opponent.

 

[Grayto]

Yes, it is worse. Getting a knee up to a standing opponent is completely different than trying to get a knee off on somebody on the floor, and the floored fighter can't protect themselves the same way. It's even worse in this situation because knowing it was illegal, Aljo wasn't at all braced for it. You clearly have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

HOW is it different> You haven't given me any evidence other than your own assertions.

How is getting kneed while kneeling down worse than, for example, getting kneed while your opponent has full Thai plum on you and brings you INTO the knee (eg. Silva vs Franklin); or moving into the knee from a takedown while the opponent does a flying knee into you (Cuban missile vs. Weidman)??????

It's basic physics; you will have MORE force generated in a collision of objects moving into each other. Notice how at least Aljo has somewhere to go (backwards), which somewhat dissipates the impact of the force to his head.

Also, in all the above scenarios (really in ANY scenario where you get hit clean in MMA), the fighter doesn't have the ability to defend himself: THAT'S THE POINT OF THE FIGHT. You're like saying its unfair to Adensenya for getting GNP'ed by Jan because he couldn't defend himself in that position. You're basically saying we should give fighters an artificial means to defend themselves.

Also:, please don't say I don't know what Im talking about, if you don't provide any logical arguments, explanations, or real-life examples for your own assertions. Until you do, you're just saying "Im right because ..."

By the way: you haven't said anything about following, so I assume concede the point:
1. there's a qualitative difference between bringing in a gun or having groin kicks, vs. allowing downed knees.
2. if it's any easy position to move from, making knees legal from this position wouldn't be a problem.
3. Aljo was stalling, and (according to you) should have been penalized; there is no other advantage to that position;
4. The rules as they are artificially giving the fighter who has gotten into weaker position an undeserved reprieve.

 

[immyaxl]

Yes, it worked fine in Pride.

With the exception of no elbows on the ground PRIDE had a far superior ruleset.

 

[Gmork]

HOW is it different> You haven't given me any evidence other than your own assertions.

How is getting kneed while kneeling down worse than, for example, getting kneed while your opponent has full Thai plum on you and brings you INTO the knee (eg. Silva vs Franklin); or moving into the knee from a takedown while the opponent does a flying knee into you (Cuban missile vs. Weidman)??????

The knee is traveling to a completely different place, and a standing fighter has the ability to protect themselves. Obviously some standing knees can be brutal, but it is clearly more dangerous that kneeing a guy kneeling on the ground. You want proof? Go to your local MMA gym and give it a shot.

 

[kellier]

Here's the thing, if you want to change what the definition of grounded to mean someone on their back or stomach, I'm fine with that, but in the situation with Yan/Sterling, that knee should absolutely be legal. A fighter having his hands and feet/knees on the ground should not protect them from strikes to the head.

Exactly how I feel. I don't agree with the notion of kicking a downed opponent in the head... But was Sterling a downed opponent as the rules intended?

Its rule manipulation waiting to exit safely from a difficult position or bait an opponent into an illegal shot.. It's why the 3 point rule was abandoned

 

[ClosetVitorFan]

In a real fight I can bring a gun, wtf does this have to do with anything? Let's bring back headbutts and ballshots and make sure we never get to see our sport on tv again, while we're at it.

Why do idiots always do this. Ok let's make hair pulling ball shots and headbutts legal again. You sound like a fucking moron. Those havent been legal since 1993-94. When it was an underground sport. Just asking for knees on the ground and up kicks is completely reasonable. People are gaming the system. Just like the hand on the ground rule. They're now doing it with a knee on the ground. Its bullshit.

 

[mmafan559]

yes it would be fun to watch

 

[Gmork]

Why do idiots always do this. Ok let's make hair pulling ball shots and headbutts legal again. You sound like a fucking moron. Those havent been legal since 1993-94. When it was an underground sport. Just asking for knees on the ground and up kicks is completely reasonable. People are gaming the system. Just like the hand on the ground rule. They're now doing it with a knee on the ground. Its bullshit.

Knees on the ground isn't completely reasonable, that's why they're not legal, and disagreeing with you doesn't make me sound like a moron, sensitive Susan.

 

[GordoBarraBJJ]

Yes imo.

Make it a more 50/50 sport for wrestler vs striker.

But no thug stomps like in pride.

What about soccer kicks?

And I agree that they should be allowed - if you're allowed to dive for someone's leg and go for a heel hook/knee bar and potentially put them out then you should be able to kick or knee a downed opponent (maybe perhaps in that situation where if you willing to go for that leg lock then you should be allowed to kick or knee the guy attempting to fuck up your leg).

 

[ClosetVitorFan]

Knees on the ground isn't completely reasonable, that's why they're not legal, and disagreeing with you doesn't make me sound like a moron, sensitive Susan.

I dont think you even know the history of why they were made illegal. Way back when, in 2000 the commissioners were going around watching mma from all over. It was a fight with Gan McGee a 7 foot huge heavyweight. He was fighting a blown up LHW who was crazy undersized. Gan Started kneeing his head and the commission was like we cant have that. Shit even in pride, they had a rule where if you were outweighed by your opponent by 20 pounds or more. You can opt to not allow 4 point attacks. This includes knees to the head on ground, stomps and soccer kicks. Learn your history. I've been a fan since the early 00s. All the newer fans think knees to the head on the ground would create fatalities in the cage because every time someone gets hit with one. They play it up like sterling. Like they're lethal. When they're allowed, fighters blocked them. They expected them.

 

[Gmork]

I dont think you even know the history of why they were made illegal. Way back when, in 2000 the commissioners were going around watching mma from all over. It was a fight with Gan McGee a 7 foot huge heavyweight. He was fighting a blown up LHW who was crazy undersized. Gan Started kneeing his head and the commission was like we cant have that. Shit even in pride, they had a rule where if you were outweighed by your opponent by 20 pounds or more. You can opt to not allow 4 point attacks. This includes knees to the head on ground, stomps and soccer kicks. Learn your history. I've been a fan since the early 00s.

I've been watching MMA since the 90s, training martial arts since the 90s and following closely since 03. I don't think knees to the head of downed opponents is good for the sport, and I'm glad the unified rules agree with me.

 

[ClosetVitorFan]

I've been watching MMA since the 90s, training martial arts since the 90s and following closely since 03. I don't think knees to the head of downed opponents is good for the sport, and I'm glad the unified rules agree with me.

Just because you take taekwondo at some mcdojo doesnt make you a fighter. Most mma fighters want knees to the head on the ground legalized. Dom cruz was like, yeah I'd be cool with headbutts even. More tools for the fighters to use.

 

[Gmork]

Just because you take taekwondo at some mcdojo doesnt make you a fighter. Most mma fighters want knees to the head on the ground legalized.

Started with boxing and Muay Thai back then in the 90s, my coach was a legit high-level professional back then. Never claimed to be a fighter, but I certainly train with them.

 

[Po]

I don't think so. I think it could be very dangerous to pin someone's head to the ground and drive your knee onto his face. At least with knees from a standing position the re is room for someone's head rto go backwards. I do think they need to revisit what a grounded opponent is. Fighters like sterling will stay on there knees to prevent knees to the head.

Ok i agree with this but they are kneeling down taking a breather like weidman or aljo I think it should be legal in this position.

If they are on their back getting dominated in half guard or something like that, no they shouldn't be allowed to get a knee to the head.

 

[ClosetVitorFan]

Ok i agree with this but they are kneeling down taking a breather like weidman or aljo I think it should be legal in this position.

If they are on their back getting dominated in half guard or something like that, no they shouldn't be allowed to get a knee to the head.

I'd be ok with this even. The only time when I've seen knees to the head really be damaging is from north south when the guy is on the bottom and the guy on top is reigning down knees. Which sadly has made north south a useless position now without allowing knees to the head on the ground. But I'm ok with this compromise. I'm just tired of fighters feeling super safe in front of their opponent on their knees, or one knee. That needs to change.