Should Jones even be #2 p4p?

[Joinho10]

Nope he should be behind Izzy and Usman.

 

[Dionysian]

Which may or may not be debatable since it could be fight age getting to him. In his prime during his early title defenses he was miles above the current contenders in his division skill/technique-wise.

P4P Talk:
And then as fast as Jones is at LHW, if you got a smaller, lighter version of Jones and placed him in a lighter division, he would move a lot faster than he would be moving at LHW since less body mass to move + smaller people are generally quicker.

You would even see Jones doing techniques that he wasn't even able to do in LHW simply because his physical strength/ability relative to his body mass would increase dramatically (Smaller, lighter people seem to move quicker and are able to do fancier tricks compared to bigger/heavier people, that's why).

It'd be like a smaller, quicker version of Jones vs Khabib if it ever happened in LW where the outcome of that fight would clearly be debatable since Jones, unlike the majority of the other fighters, seem to almost be immune to being taken down (even Cormier, an Olympic calibre wrestler, was getting outwrestled by Jones in their first fight).

Imagine Khabib getting rattled by oblique kicks and being kept away by Jones reach (risk of eye pokes there too) while also worrying about spinning kicks to the body. The vast majority of Jones strikes would be too fast for Khabib to catch btw since Khabib isn't really known for his speed. He has also not faced anyone who not only boasts a completely unique skillset/fight IQ compared to pretty much everyone else, but has the talent and tendency to outclass his opponents' main strength and use it against them.

Why can't Jones vs Khabib (P4P wise) end up the same way as what happened in the Cormier fights again? While Cormier's submissions aren't as advanced as Khabib is, Cormier has arguably better power in his hands and his wrestling ability is just as good.

Cormier's career at LHW would go down the Khabib route where he'd just pressure everyone with his wrestling skills and exceptional physical ability if Jones didn't exist anyways. What happened against Gus was an outlier anyways.

@VVarhead @Peli

Oh I agree about "fight age" ... regardless of how you rationalize it (PEDs, age, whatever) this Jones is not the same as prime Jones. Bringing up my "Jon skillset in other divisions" example highlights this... like I said now, it is debatable if he even gets the belt... a MW skillset Jon against Izzy = I'd bet the house on Izzy by KO. Conversely a MW prime Jon against Izzy = Jon takes him down and squashes him... IMO somewhat of an unknown quality (we don't know how truly good Izzy's TDD is) but yeah.

Jon skillset vs Khabib at LW... if we're talking current Jon there is no question of a Khabib victory IMO. I believe that fight would be similar to Tony/Khabib (in that Tony has longer than average reach + solid and diverse striking + good grappling base to fall back on) and ends in a Khabib victory.

Prime Jon skillset/attributes vs Khabib... I believe there the question transfers to comparing weight classes more than anything else. Your Jon vs DC comparison is apt but even there I don't think it is accurate to compare them... it falls apart as soon as they approach the fence IMO. We have seen Khabib against comparably quick kickers/outside fighters (Barboza, and even recently against Justin's gameplan is comparable I think) and he fares well. In terms of speed, the speed of Khabib is quickest when it comes to initiating grappling (Dorman breakdowns really highlight this), but he does have the capability to toss out quick strikes as well (think Conor knockdown).

The question of how it happens against the fence (especially if, like you said, Jon tries to engage that strength head-on) can't be compared to anything at LHW IMO. I don't think anyone on Earth engages Khabib at his strength and wins. Prime Jon certainly is the best equipped to do so, but at the end of the day if we were to somehow see that the threads on Sherdog the next day would basically conclude: "yep, LW > LHW in terms of depths of skillsets." We somewhat already know LW technique is better than LHW, but that fight would crystallize it for everyone to see I think.

 

[Superman Elbow]

They look like W's to me.

It takes more than W's to be the p4p best. Finishes would help and not having snoozers against oversized middleweights.

 

[TerrorTimmy]

Izzy should be #2, Stipe/Usman #3/4

 

[is a]

We have seen Khabib against comparably quick kickers/outside fighters (Barboza, and even recently against Justin's gameplan is comparable I think) and he fares well.

Jon Jones did a number of things different (or quite frequently) compared to those fighters where Jon Jones would use his huge reach advantage in proportion to his height (and his opponents) to keep them away at a distance, or utilize oblique kicks and spinning kicks to the midsection to keep his opponents from approaching too close to him.

Khabib would instinctively react to an oblique kick/kneecap kick or a spinning kick to the midsection, especially if Khabib wasn't close enough to initiate a proper takedown attempt or to pin him against the fence. If it was a standard leg kick, Khabib can catch it, but Jones kicks are more diverse than that.

and then you got stuff like shoulder, spinning elbows, and his deceptively good manipulation of an opponent's leverage relative to his own to just straight up take ppl down, similar to Jones' takedown of DC after pinning him against the fence.

It depends on Khabib's body dimensions are though. Right now I'm assuming Khabib if he was Chris Weidman/Luke Rockhold's size.

Khabib can potentially get in a submission against Jones though if it does get to the ground and Jones has to grapple.

 

[hognubbins]

What are you smoking? St.-Pierre vs. Condit was much more exciting than Jones vs. Smith.

I stand corrected, but it's only because of Condit. GSP would much prefer a Hardy/Serra 2 type of fight. And I was wrong again, as Hendricks was my favorite GSP fight... until the decision.

 

[MescalineDreams]

@ExitLUPin I think beyond recent accomplishments, Jones probably still feels like skill wise, hes still the best fighter in the sport.

And to be honest, even after competing as a champion for over a decade, hes not far off in that assessment.

In terms of actual rankings though, its understandable why many have taken him out of that position and ultimately his success at HW is the only thing that will get him back there.

 

[MescalineDreams]

oh look you found polls from sherdoggers ..<Lmaoo>


he blew his knee out n the first and if it weren't for that yes I could see a win coming ...

but clearly didn't beat jones

For anyone who bothered to rewatch it

It was a clear win. The vast majority watch a fight once, in the heat of the moment. Their opinions cant be trusted.

 

[Kha'bless]

Jon shouldn't have been P4P #1 since his last 2 fights that's the joke. For someone who plays the race card he sure get's a lot of passes and favouritism.

 

[Superman Elbow]

@ExitLUPin I think beyond recent accomplishments, Jones probably still feels like skill wise, hes still the best fighter in the sport.

And to be honest, even after competing as a champion for over a decade, hes not far off in that assessment.

In terms of actual rankings though, its understandable why many have taken him out of that position and ultimately his success at HW is the only thing that will get him back there.

Sill wise Jon has looked pretty normal his last 3 fights. P4p is current, I will say tho he should be ranked above khabib in the goat list

 

[MescalineDreams]

Sill wise Jon has looked pretty normal his last 3 fights. P4p is current, I will say tho he should be ranked above khabib in the goat list

That really isnt true. I think people need to go back, watch these fights again and look a lot closer.

Hes certainly slowed but skill and technique wise he is still very much there.


A big reason why Santos and Reyes gave him difficulty, particularly Santos, is that they were able to challenge and stifle his kicking arsenal.

Up until this point, nobody ever has. Santos is probably the best kicker at any of the top 3 divisions outside of Adesanya.

Keeping Jon from dominating the kicking game and range was a huge factor in making him look human which was previously an unknown hole.

Reyes himself said he had no chance, if he wasn't able to compete in the kicking game.

Reyes had a sort of multidimensional approach to his style and gameplan,being unpredictable, stifling Jon's kicking game and range etc. He did a lot of things in there none of Jon's opponents never have.

I would add that Jon has been fighting for over a decade and while his skills are still in tact, he has slowed. Hes at the point where fighters who still have the speed, reflexes and less mileage are going to give him more trouble than any other point in his career.

Theres a lot of things people dont really consider

 

[Spiritual Sight]

Just look at the performances after he realized he can't get away with PEDs anymore. That guy only held onto the belt because of the "If you want to be the champ, you have to beat the champ" rule. He would have lost all of those fights (except Smith) in normal contender bouts.

A clean Jon Jones is nothing more than a top 10 fighter. MAYBE top 5.

 

[Ufcmaster]

Jon Jones did a number of things different (or quite frequently) compared to those fighters where Jon Jones would use his huge reach advantage in proportion to his height (and his opponents) to keep them away at a distance, or utilize oblique kicks and spinning kicks to the midsection to keep his opponents from approaching too close to him.

Khabib would instinctively react to an oblique kick/kneecap kick or a spinning kick to the midsection, especially if Khabib wasn't close enough to initiate a proper takedown attempt or to pin him against the fence. If it was a standard leg kick, Khabib can catch it, but Jones kicks are more diverse than that.

and then you got stuff like shoulder, spinning elbows, and his deceptively good manipulation of an opponent's leverage relative to his own to just straight up take ppl down, similar to Jones' takedown of DC after pinning him against the fence.

It depends on Khabib's body dimensions are though. Right now I'm assuming Khabib if he was Chris Weidman/Luke Rockhold's size.

Khabib can potentially get in a submission against Jones though if it does get to the ground and Jones has to grapple.

Jones can't held pressure.
He runs and turns his back to pressure.
When hands starts flying his defense of using one arm as a spear starts falling apart.

 

[is a]

Jones can't held pressure.
He runs and turns his back to pressure.

Daniel Cormier was approaching him half the time during their fights but Jones managed to control the distance towards them very well. Albeit, Jon had a huge reach advantage on top of being quicker (double plus btw since smaller guys are usually more agile).

But since this is p4p, Khabib may not be halted easily as Cormier would and would keep moving forwards gunning for the fence/takedown, albeit Jon may be smart enough to find a feasible solution for it.

Can Khabib catch Jon's spinning and oblique kicks?

 

[MCS]

Jones' rank at #1 or #2 is based on tenure, not recent form. He's not been performing better than Adesanya, Khabib, Stipe or Usman.

 

[Ufcmaster]

Daniel Cormier was approaching him half the time during their fights but Jones managed to control the distance towards them very well. Albeit, Jon had a huge reach advantage on top of being quicker (double plus btw since smaller guys are usually more agile).

But since this is p4p, Khabib may not be halted easily as Cormier would and would keep moving forwards gunning for the fence/takedown, albeit Jon may be smart enough to find a feasible solution for it.

Can Khabib catch Jon's spinning and oblique kicks?

Yes Reyes avoided those spinning and oblique kicks by watching tape meticulously. So Khabib can watch those tapes to and learn all reactions jones gives when fires those.

He studied Gaethje low calf kick meticulously too and knew which reaction to get out of gaethje to throw that kick and catch it. He threw a non commital jab to lure out the kick and caught which led to the ending sequence.

22 seconds of Gaethje landing the kick and being put to sleep by Khabib is all it took

 

[Superman Elbow]

That really isnt true. I think people need to go back, watch these fights again and look a lot closer.

Hes certainly slowed but skill and technique wise he is still very much there.


A big reason why Santos and Reyes gave him difficulty, particularly Santos, is that they were able to challenge and stifle his kicking arsenal.

Up until this point, nobody ever has. Santos is probably the best kicker at any of the top 3 divisions outside of Adesanya.

Keeping Jon from dominating the kicking game and range was a huge factor in making him look human which was previously an unknown hole.

Reyes himself said he had no chance, if he wasn't able to compete in the kicking game.

Reyes had a sort of multidimensional approach to his style and gameplan,being unpredictable, stifling Jon's kicking game and range etc. He did a lot of things in there none of Jon's opponents never have.

I would add that Jon has been fighting for over a decade and while his skills are still in tact, he has slowed. Hes at the point where fighters who still have the speed, reflexes and less mileage are going to give him more trouble than any other point in his career.

Theres a lot of things people dont really consider

Anybody in top p4p don't get stiffled. Izzy has been putting on way better fights than Jones lately, again p4p is current. A bunch of excuses about his last fights don't change that.

 

[dildos]

Mostlikely number 3 imo.

 

[MescalineDreams]

Anybody in top p4p don't get stiffled. Izzy has been putting on way better fights than Jones lately, again p4p is current. A bunch of excuses about his last fights don't change that.

If you read my prior post, I never suggested otherwise.

I was more so responding to your idea that he looked average in his last 3 fights.

Theres a huge difference between excuses and attention to detail.

 

[Superman Elbow]

Daniel Cormier was approaching him half the time during their fights but Jones managed to control the distance towards them very well. Albeit, Jon had a huge reach advantage on top of being quicker (double plus btw since smaller guys are usually more agile).

But since this is p4p, Khabib may not be halted easily as Cormier would and would keep moving forwards gunning for the fence/takedown, albeit Jon may be smart enough to find a feasible solution for it.

Can Khabib catch Jon's spinning and oblique kicks?

He could for sure takes his back after a failed spinning back kick and ride jones like a giraffe while choking him to death