Should I do a carb refeed?

Discussion in 'Dieting / Supplement Discussion' started by leftovercrack, Oct 7, 2010.

  1. leftovercrack

    leftovercrack Yellow Belt

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    So I've been low carb eating for 10 weeks to make 205 lb weight limit which I did last friday and fought on Saturday. After I had 1 day where I ate pizza some maki rolls and a little Ice cream.

    The morning of my fight, my coach asked me if I wanted to take another fight at a 225 catchweight on Nov. 6 which i agreed to.

    I think this is a good opportunity to make some strength gains in this time, since while I was losing the weight my lifts all kind of stayed where they were, didn't increase, but didn't really lose much strength and all bodyweight based movements like pullups, chins, pushups actually increased which I assumed was due to shedding 30 lbs.

    I lift 3 days a weeks based on Squat, Deadlift, Bench press with 3 or 4 assistance movements each day.

    My question is should I do a carb refeed day on my rest day every Sunday? Should I just keep eating low carb( by that I mean only carb sources are greens n nuts about 20- 30 g/day)

    This is where I get confused, Do I need the carb refeed to add a little muscle and make gains? Or will just getting in the calories for more fat/protein do the trick?

    I really love the way I feel eating so low carb, I love how I feel with this lower body fat percentage as far as my speed, mobility on the mat etc goes, but my strength does lack compared to other guys my size( 6"4, 210 lbs atm).

    I should also add I am very prone to store fat in the midsection, and always platuead weight loss around 225-230 before I tried low carb.

    The only thing I know about my opponent that he is an exceptionally strong wrestler with good g'n'p and that I will have a skill and striking advantage.
     
  2. dropshot001

    dropshot001 Red Belt

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    if you do a carb refeed and do it as a low fat, high carb day(think cereal, pasta....not cheeseburgers) then it will work. the key is that you don't "overrefeed" in that you don't have too many meals or run it for too long a time (like 24 hrs when you really only need 12) as that will lead to fat accumulation.
     
  3. otnemeM

    otnemeM Blue Belt

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    If you have room to add weight, sure. If you have a X lb goal, you can even add carbs to your diet in a paleo kind-of-way, which IMO is the best way to come off a low-carb or even keto diet.

    How much do you weigh right now?
     
  4. MaDFroG

    MaDFroG Green Belt

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    Oke first off all you will get better sugestions from youre trainers then from Sherdog.


    9 kg in one month ... you won't put much quality especialy if you want to use a carb refeed . Based on papers you are in a disadvantage against him since he must cut weight to get to 225...but I think the cardio can play a good factor in youre match-up.
    So eat smart :vegetables and quality meat(Proteins) forget about stupid food like pizza , icecream...they will only get you to 225 faster .

    Good luck
     
  5. leftovercrack

    leftovercrack Yellow Belt

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    ok thanks, I understand that is has to be balanced in the macros and lower fat and protein and good clean carbs. I'm gonna do 12 hours every sunday from now till fight day. I'm not worried about putting on pounds, mostly just want to gain strength with minimal fat gains because I'll be fighting at 205 again at the beginning io January,and I'm about 212-215 right now. so an extra few pounds aint scary to me
     
  6. dropshot001

    dropshot001 Red Belt

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    the carbs don't necessarly have to be "clean" as in rice and oatmeal. the key is to replenish glycogen so using carbs from say waffles and syrup would work better. you want to be able to get as many carbs in during the specified time as possible and i am pretty sure that you can eat more carbs with pancakes and syrup than oatmeal, just as an example. you will put on some weight, almost all of it water and it will be gone within the next 4-7 days when you baseline
     
  7. leftovercrack

    leftovercrack Yellow Belt

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    ok thanks for the help.
     
  8. mmafreedom

    mmafreedom Purple Belt

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    I don't know if I agree with you here. Waffles and syrup will have a way higher ratio of sugar in comparison to glucose then rice and oats.
    (Sucrose can only be used to replenish liver glycogen, no more)
    Maybe first thing in the morning it is ok to treat yourself with that, but don't base your entire day on it, that is just foolish.
    Make sure you get plenty of water, plenty of protein, plenty of clean carbs if you do carb up, keep fats low.

    P.s. be prepared for a bloat that ensues carb ups... It is not fat, it just just water retention. If you do bloat the next day, make sure you tell yourself that over and over and over. The bloat is a killer ;)
     
  9. dropshot001

    dropshot001 Red Belt

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    if you are doing it for say 12 hrs and that is how long you have figured out your body needs the refeed for, then you won't put on weight (which i think you are referring to by your "foolish" comment) in terms of fat. of course, if you are doing 12 hrs but you really should be refeeding for 6 then there will be problems in terms of fat gain. you will get bloated as you note and you will get watery, but you won't get fat off of it. after the refeed is done, then you are back to your normal meals/diet as usual and then go about your week. by the time the refeed comes around next time then your weight should be at least the same as, if not lower, than what it was before the refeed.

    for some people, the protein may or may not be necessary throughout the refeed, the main thing is to get as many carbs as possible.
     
  10. mmafreedom

    mmafreedom Purple Belt

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    No one can fully replenish glycogen stores in 6 hours if they were completely empty. Also, once all your liver glycogen is full, sucrose will under go de novo lipogenesis and be converted into fat, so it is best not copious amounts of sugar. Sure, in the grandscheme of things it is not going to be much at all, but over time it all adds up.

    I agree with you 100% about the weight being back to normal once the excess bloat is gone, but I was just trying to let the guy know that it is safer to go with glucose based foods rather then sucrose/fructose.
     
  11. dropshot001

    dropshot001 Red Belt

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    i still say that if your goal is to take in as many carbs as possible, going with fructose/sucrose/simple sugars in general will do the trick much better than using more complex carbs. not to mention, if the weight goes back to normal or if you even lose weight, then there isn't fat accumulation as that would lead to weight gain (not baselining within the given time period). the weight gain would probably be somewhat noticeable as well seeing as during a refeed pretty large, if not massive amounts of food are consumed.


    IntenseMuscle.com - View Single Post - My Biggest Refeed To Date! a refeed for someone who does refeeds might look like.....the guy is very intense and crazy when it comes to refeeds) if he used different non fructose/sucrose based carbs there is no way that he could have consumed as much food as he did

    IntenseMuscle.com - View Single Post - I Just Gave Birth To Octuplets! (aftermath/baseline)
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2010
  12. mmafreedom

    mmafreedom Purple Belt

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    It isn't simply how many carbs you take in, it is also WHAT KIND of carbs. If you eat only sucrose (which is half fructose) aswell as pure fructose, you are going to fill your liver and fat cells. If you eat glucose, you will fill muscle cells aswell.

    TS, please pay more attention to my advice. Limit your sucrose/fructose intake to 100g for your carb load, try to not go over that and get the rest of your carbohydrates from other sources. Simple as that.

    Besides, if you want to put on muscle mass start eating carbs.
     
  13. Ironpants

    Ironpants Blue Belt

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    Hey mmafreedom, I've been wondering about that. What is the actual/recommended limit for fructose intake (from fruits) before it become detrimental to your diet/eating plan (if it does)?

    I think I do eat too much fruit (2 apples a day, 4/5 bananas, ect) , should more of your carbs be coming from grains (pasta, brown rice) rather then fruits?
     
  14. mmafreedom

    mmafreedom Purple Belt

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    Everyone is different so every answer you get is different, but the average liver holds 100g of glycogen take or give - Advanced Sports Nutrition by Dan Benardot, PhD, RD, FACSM

    Earlier, I said 100g though that was a number from a foggy memory. I would bring this down even further to 50g, but realistically what difference is that going to make? You still have to live life and have fun. Optimally you would keep it below 50, if you were really paranoid about it.

    Ideally yes, they are much better sources.

    Please note I am not an expect nor do I have any degrees. Always keep an open mind and do your own research so that you can make your own informed decisions about your own life. Hope i've helped you.
     
  15. Ironpants

    Ironpants Blue Belt

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    Hey thanks man.

    This advise actually gives me a little hope because I think I know what I might be doing wrong with my eating plan now.

    I hear conflicting issues about fruit intake. You hear the 5/servings of fruit/day thing is supposed to be essential to a healthy diet/weight plan. But then not too long ago I found out that too much fruit (fructose) can actually put fat on you (from all of that fruit sugar I suppose).

    So I'm guessing fruits are not the best source of carbs (as opposed to grains like oatmeal, whole wheat pasta, brown rice, ect) ?

    Atleast 2/3rds of my daily carb intake is from fruit. Guess I'm gonna stop eating fruit and see what happens.
     
  16. otnemeM

    otnemeM Blue Belt

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    Theory is fine but in MY experience:

    - A clean carb up is superior to a nasty one. I've done lots of both while on a cut diet (I usually use CKD) and I could tell the difference especially when I was sub-8%, where things get much more evident.

    - Non-starchy fruit (bananas are excluded) can be a great source of carbs as in, for example, a Paleo Diet. I've been on Paleo for the last 3~4 months and I feel great. Energy is good and, here's where one notices the difference, much more stable than when I resorted to starchy carbs.
    Do note that before I do BJJ or other activities of the like, I do add some source of complex carbs as a pre-WO meal while keeping the (healthy) fat intake, but that's it.
    No fat gain just because I eat lots of fruit, as the theory/myth would suggest.

    Also, grains are not superior per se. Everything has its place and I've been doing much better since I stopped eating grains as basic source of carbs. My gut for instance thanks me everyday.
     
  17. dropshot001

    dropshot001 Red Belt

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    i respect your opinion, but i feel as though the "dirty" carbs does have its merits. here's a short exerpt from an interview done with ken "skip" hill who is responsible for creating the refeed (in the article referred to as "skiploading") that i am trying to describe/debate with mmafreedom on. just because what i am describing isn't the norm or a "typical" way of doing things doesn't mean that it should be overlooked or discounted, it's worked well for many people.

    "1. To keep the metabolism off guard and primed with a very high amount of carbohydrate approximately once a week and
    2. To test the body's ability to fill out and how long it takes to both retain water and then shed it.

    The effect that these re-feed or loading days have on the metabolism is insane. There are times where absolutely no diet changes are needed week after week due to the impact that the loading days have on the metabolism. I liken it to pouring gas on a fire in relation to carbs and the metabolism. Most of the time you can actually feel your body temperature go up either as you eat, shortly after you eat, or even all day on these loading days. It is common to sweat while eating these meals due to the metabolism gaining momentum. Also, the insulin response from high GI carbs once a week takes advantage of the body's own insulin production. When in a glycogen depleted state there is no concern with body fat being stored on these days due to the very high intake of high GI carbs. You come off of these days very full and can take advantage of added strength for a couple days in the gym as well." (the entire interview is here: IntenseMuscle.com - View Single Post - Ken "Skip" Hill.... Skiploading, contest prep, picking his brain, the works). yes it is bodybuilding related, but i feel that it has merits to general dieting down, not necessarily only for contest prep
     
  18. Steakeater**

    Steakeater** Banned Banned

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    50 grams of fructose maax
     
  19. dropshot001

    dropshot001 Red Belt

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    out of curiosity, what makes you say that? what makes you have such a hard and fast rule?
     
  20. Steakeater**

    Steakeater** Banned Banned

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    Fructose can only be metabolized in the liver, up to about 50 grams. Fat cells if liver glycogen is full. The person you quoted stressed high GI carbs, which is good. But not all sugar is high GI. and not all high GI carbs are sugar
     

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