shogun vs dc would have been more competitive?
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Henderson got 1 takedown the first fight and had Shogun on top of him far more than he was on top of Shogun. Shogun also had 5 takedowns, Henderson got outwrestled.
Shogun got 1 takedown in the second fight and Henderson got 0, it was a short fight with almost no grappling but Shogun got the better of the grappling again even if it was very very brief.
If that were the case then Henderson would have been the one getting on top over and over again, he wasn't, Shogun was.
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I prefer fightmetric as it has more fights so the sample size is much bigger so the results should be more accurate.
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What are you talking about? You are the one who brought up prime Henderson who never fought Shogun or DC, he was passed his prime in both fights so why did you bring that up?
WTF are you talking about, comparing aspects of MMA to determine who is better than who in what area and then saying they likely would do better but still lose to another opponent isn't MMA math, MMA math doesn't go into specifics like that, it's called breaking down a fight based on past knowledge evidence and the fighter's style. DC fought the same brawling Henderson that Shogun did and Shogun got the better of him on the ground and is better off his back than Henderson, this leads me to believe he would do a bit better than Henderson did against DC because he got his ass kicked badly, the 2nd was a 10-8 and the third was going to be a 10-8.
I don't know why you keep bringing up prime Henderson as neither DC or Shogun fought him nor did I mention him or any fights he had during his prime.
These are the posts of a moron who can't debate, you suck at debating so you assume and try to present my argument as something that it isn't, it's pathetic.
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Ok now you're just a stupid retard (typical desperate shogun nuthugger)
Let me break this down as simple as possible since you are obviously too stupid to even remember what YOU said.
1. You keep bringing up that Shogun outwrestled Henderson as proof that he would do better against DC
2. Henderson hasn't used his wrestling or grappling in a long time.
3. Therefore, your point is useless and doesn't mean shit especially when we are talking about Shogun potentially fighting Cormier, who has and does constantly use his wrestling.
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Let's try debating like adults, no insults, no trying to re-frame my argument and no bringing up stuff that's irrelevant like Henderson not using his wrestling in a long time, as it was the same for the DC fight as it was for Shogun.
I brought it up once and you kept harping on it so I then talked about it more. I just used it as an example to show that Shogun is a better MMA grappler than Henderson. Henderson does have better TDD but not by much so it doesn't really matter when facing a guy like DC that can take anyone down, so what would matter more is who is better on the ground after getting taken down and that's Shogun.
I never said that Shogun would beat DC or outgrapple him or anything even suggesting that, merely that he wouldn't get beaten as badly as Henderson did and this seems to have made you butthurt.
What did you think my argument was or what I forgot? It should be pretty easy to prove that I've forgotten something or said something contradictory in my posts as I haven't edited any of them.
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this is why stats suck.
Shogun took Hendo down after he dropped/hurt him in both fights and then in the 5th round where it was all survival for Hendo.
Dan didn't try to take him down while fresh in neither fight, he tossed him down early in their 1st fight and took him down once in round 3, that's it.
He dropped him and then got dropped himself & GnP'd to near stoppages in both rounds of their rematch and in the 5th round of their 1st fight.
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Nah.
It might have been barely more competitive, but like someone already said, it would hard to be less competitive.
In the end Shogun has absolutely nothing at all for DC, and the fight would probably end the exact same way, likely sooner.
It might have been barely more competitive, but like someone already said, it would hard to be less competitive.
In the end Shogun has absolutely nothing at all for DC, and the fight would probably end the exact same way, likely sooner.
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I'm not basing my opinion on just those fights though and never rely solely on stats but they are a useful additional tool. Henderson's grappling isn't as good as Shogun's especially off his back where it would be more helpful against a guy like DC because, lets face it neither guy is going to stop DC from taking them down so whoever is better off their backs should have more success against DC and Shogun has shown to be better off his back than Henderson has.
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First off: You just threw insults in your last post so lol at the hypocrisy of "no insults"
(see how quickly and easily you forget)
Second. I never said you said Shogun would beat DC, I've always known this thread is about him doing better. And as I have said multiple times, no he wouldnt.
Third. Dan Henderson has better grappling than Shogun as a whole. Now in his 40s he has abandoned his wrestling and grappling. This is obvious to anyone who watches him now. You cannot argue than Henderson's grappling/wrestling is as good as it was during his Decision Dan days. He has completely throw away wrestling, grappling, and strategy in order to brawl and rely on his KO power and durability. Therefore, it makes no sense to bring up Shogun outgrappling Dan when he clearly hasn't been using or even attempting to use his wrestling for the past couple years.
Fourth. Yes bro you have continually been bringing up Shogun out grappling Hendo. You have definitely brought it up more than one time. Allow me to refresh your memory
pg9
1st
pg10
2nd
3rd
4th
4 different times you've brought up Shogun out grappling/wrestling Henderson.
And yet again I will state: Henderson hasn't used his grappling/wrestling in a long time. To say Shogun would do better against DC because he out grappled Henderson during the time where he was just a brawler is not a good argument. And yes it is similar to MMAth especially when one of said guys doesn't even use that part of MMA any more
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Shogun fans are the best. :icon_lol:
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I'd say it might have been MORE competitive as Rua is better off of his back than Hendo and Cormier has looked a little vulnerable to leg locks but I'd say DC still likely wins a decision.
Now 2005 Shogun would be a very different, your talking a much more dangerous grappler there with far superior cardio, I think Cormier would be taking much more of a risk with that version on the ground.
Now 2005 Shogun would be a very different, your talking a much more dangerous grappler there with far superior cardio, I think Cormier would be taking much more of a risk with that version on the ground.
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this one was somewhat like Hendo's fight with Arona, he's pretty good at defensive grappling himself, and his scrambling ability has been tough to deal with for many.
He didn't get to use it here, neither would Shogun. That's wrestling, Shogun has a good body lock leg trip takedown, that's his only notable wrestling tool.
If he fought DC, he would gas like he's done many times against worse & weaker top grapplers, and get beat up or choked from there. He's got that one leg lock win over Randleman, that's his "best" shot.
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Vera laid on him for a decent part of that fight.
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I wasn't using butthurt as an insult, it was just the best word to describe your overreaction to me saying Shogun would do slightly better against DC because he matches up better with him. The reason I brought up that fight multiple times is because there is this false notion that Henderson is some great wrestler when it comes to MMA, he isn't and never was, he just went from a guy with good takedowns and bad TDD to a brawler with good TDD, his TDD got better as he aged but his overall grappling and takedowns got worse. People have a false notion about Shogun's wrestling as well, his wrestling is good but his TDD is bad, however against a guy like DC it doesn't really matter you're going to get taken down.
In what ways? I'm not sure why you keep bringing up prime/younger Henderson, DC and Shogun didn't fight him when he was younger and used his wrestling more. Henderson's grappling ability would be about the same in the DC fight as it was in the Shogun fights so it makes for a good measuring stick.
Did that magically change for DC? I don't know why you keep bringing up something that is irrelevant, it's not helping your argument, it's hurting it.
Henderson was still a brawler against DC? Why do you keep bringing this up as if Henderson was a different fighter against DC than he was in the Shogun fights, he wasn't, neither Henderson nor Shogun are going to stop DC from taking them down, so we likely know that Shogun would be on his back much of the fight just like Henderson was, we also know that Shogun is better fighting off his back then Henderson is based on watching all of their fights.
No it's not, if it was there would be no way that anyone could predict a fight based on past evidence, you would just call it MMA math. Saying that Shogun would likely do better than Henderson did against Cormier because his stand up is more technical and because he's shown to be better off his back than Henderson isn't MMA math.
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Barely, if at all.
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I'd say yes, definitely yes. Shogun is the all around better fighter. Especially in his last two fights (yes, two, cause he was doing excellent up till that punch) where he was more postured and concentrated in his striking, less of a brawling displayed...
But, man, when you stand and trade punches with Hendo, chances are eventually you gonna get caught. And all it takes is one to get you KTFO.
But, man, when you stand and trade punches with Hendo, chances are eventually you gonna get caught. And all it takes is one to get you KTFO.
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I disagree, his best shot would be to throw hard technical strikes on the feet and concede the takedowns when the come and try to roll through them. If and when he gets taken down he needs to use sweeps and submission attempts to create space to either get up or back on top, these are his strengths on the bottom, not submissions.
I'm glad you brought up Arona because that fight shows what Shogun's strong suit is on the ground and it isn't submissions. Henderson's bottom game is more like Wanderlei's it's about preventing damage, slowing down the guy on top and working their way back to their feet, they don't use sweeps or submission attempts much to create openings to get up or on top like Shogun does. I know he isn't what he used to be but his bottom game matches up better with DC's top game than Henderson's bottom game.
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Careful someone might get upset at that opinion.
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Shogun has a better bottom game than Hendo, but still easy win for DC.
