SHERDOG MOVIE CLUB: Week 86 Discussion - Whiplash

[Guestx]

NOTE to NON-MEMBERS: Interested in joining the SHERDOG MOVIE CLUB? Shoot me a PM for more info.

Here's a quick list of all movies watched by the SMC. Or if you prefer, here's a more detailed examination.


This week we're wrapping up Cycle 5 and it's @jasonrest29 who is bringing us home!

Our Director

Damien Chazelle wrote and directed his debut feature, Guy and Madeline on a Park Bench, as part of his senior thesis project with classmate Justin Hurwitz at Harvard. The film premiered at Tribeca Film Festival in 2009 and received various awards on the festival circuit, before being picked up by Variance Films for limited release and opening to critical acclaim.

After graduation, Chazelle moved to Los Angeles with the ultimate goal of attracting interest to produce his musical La La Land. Chazelle worked as a "writer-for-hire" in Hollywood; among his writing credits are The Last Exorcism Part II (2013) and Grand Piano (2013). He was also brought in by J.J. Abrams' Bad Robot Productions to re-write a draft of 10 Cloverfield Lane (2016) with the intention of also directing, but Chazelle ultimately chose to direct Whiplash instead.

Chazelle initially described Whiplash as a writing reaction to being stuck on another script: "I just thought, that's not working, let me put it away and write this thing about being a jazz drummer in high school." He stated he initially did not want to show the script around, as it felt too personal, and "I put it in a drawer." Although nobody was initially interested in producing the film, his script was featured on Black List in 2012 as one of the best unmade films of that year. The project was eventually picked up by Right of Way Films and Blumhouse Productions, who suggested that Chazelle turn a portion of his script into an 18-minute short film as proof-of-concept. The short was accepted at Sundance Film Festival 2013, where it was well-received; financing was then raised for the feature film, and in 2014 it was released to an overwhelmingly positive critical reaction.[20] Whiplash received numerous awards on the festival circuit and earned five Academy Award nominations, including Best Adapted Screenplay for Chazelle, winning three.

Thanks to the success of Whiplash, Chazelle was able to attract financiers for his musical La La Land. The film opened the Venice International Film Festival on August 31, 2016 and began a limited release in the United States on December 9, 2016, with a wider release on December 16, 2016. It has received rave reviews from critics and numerous awards. Chazelle was particularly praised for his work on the film and received several top honors, including a Golden Globe and an Academy Award for Best Director, making Chazelle the youngest director to win both awards.

Our Stars​

Miles Teller: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1886602

JK Simmons: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0799777

Film Overview and YouTube Videos​

Premise: A promising young drummer enrolls at a cut-throat music conservatory where his dreams of greatness are mentored by an instructor who will stop at nothing to realize a student's potential.

Budget: $3.3 million
Box Office: $49 million

​

Trivia
(courtesy of IMDB)​

* The director and writer of the film, Damien Chazelle, could not get funding for the movie, so he instead turned it into a short film and submitted it into the Sundance Film Festival in 2013. The short film ended up winning the Short Film Jury Award, and he got funding soon after.

* During the more intense practice scenes, the director wouldn't yell, "cut!" so that Miles Teller would keep drumming until he exhausted himself.

* The film was shot in 19 days

* Miles Teller, who has played the drums since he was 15, received blisters on his hands due to the vigorous, unconventional style of jazz drumming. Some of his blood was on the drumsticks and the drum set as a result.

* For the slapping scene, J.K. Simmons and Miles Teller filmed several takes with Simmons only miming the slap. For the final take, Simmons and Teller decided to film the scene with a real, genuine slap. This is the take that is in the film.

* Although a visual double was used, all of Andrew's drumming was performed by Miles Teller himself to pre-recorded tracks. About 40% of Teller's drumming was used in the soundtrack.

* The film is one of the lowest grossing movies ever to be nominated for the Academy Award for Best Picture.

* J.K. Simmons has won 47 awards for his role as Fletcher.

* In the scene where J.K. Simmons yells "I will fuck you like a pig," you may notice that the camera cuts away from him when he delivers that line. The line was actually taken from the short film; the original line was "I am going to gut you like a fucking pig." Damien Chazelle thought the new line was hilarious and included it in the production script. Simmons thought it was ridiculous and refused to say that line, but Chazelle included the 'mistake' in post-production anyway.

* Early in the film, Andrew listens to a CD of Buddy Rich. Buddy Rich was a drummer infamous for his short temper, and he would regularly berate and verbally abuse his band mates for what he considered inferior musicianship; this foreshadows Fletcher's abusive treatment of his students.

* The film was shot, edited, and submitted into Sundance in ten weeks.

* Austin Stowell (Ryan) has no drumming experience and had only a month to prepare for his role by learning three songs on drums.

* The screenplay for this film was featured in the 2012 Blacklist; a list of the "most liked" unmade scripts of the year.

* Buddy Rich, the famous drummer who Andrew idolizes, never received any formal music education and said he never practiced.

* Though she received top billing for her performance and is the fourth cast member to be listed in the end credits, Melissa Benoist has less than ten minutes of total screen time.

* On his date with Nicole, a song comes on in the background that Andrew recognizes as by Jackie Hill from 1938. There is no such jazz artist named Jackie Hill. That song, along with many of the compositions featured in the film, are the works of the film's composer Justin Hurwitz.

* J.K. Simmons actually had his own musical background. His mother was a middle-school music teacher, and his father was director of the music department at the University of Montana, where J.K. himself earned a music degree.

* Damien Chazelle wanted Miles Teller for the role of Andrew Neiman when he was filming the original short film Whiplash (2013) but Teller was unavailable so Johnny Simmons was cast instead. When casting the feature film version, the finalists for the role were Teller and Simmons. Teller was cast because he was a better known name and an actual drummer.

* Dane DeHaan turned down the role of Andrew.

* There are two theories on how Charlie "Yardbird" Parker actually got his name. 1) He lived "free as a bird". Or the more commonly accepted one, 2) When touring with Jay McShann, they accidentally hit a chicken (a yardbird) with their car and Parker made them stop to pick it up so he could have his landlady cook it for him.

* Miles Teller plays a 19 year old in Whiplash which followed him playing an 18 year old in his previous film The Spectacular Now (2013). This despite him being 25 and 26 during filming respectively.

* J.K. Simmons suffered two cracked ribs when Miles Teller tackled him during the last two days of shooting. Simmons managed to continue working despite his injury.

* Andrew's final drum performance lasts for 9 minutes. His final drum solo lasts approximately 5 minutes.

* When asked about the film's ending J.K. Simmons claimed that he and writer-director Damien Chazelle wanted "to inspire discussion and debate and not decide - are we happy for Andrew Neimann or are we lamenting his loss of humanity. The debate I love, is how far is too far? How much is too much? Is it worth it? This kind of relentless abuse might be necessary and appropriate if you're training Navy Seals, but I don't know if it's appropriate in a music school. But it's there, and it can be productive; there's no denying that. From my own perspective, I'd rather have a pretty girlfriend than go work with this guy and have my hands bleed all the time. I would have made a different choice."

* In an interview with Screen Crush, Damien Chazelle stated the ending implied Andrew's future would be like Charlie Parker, where he would rather die drunk and broke at the age of 34. This was earlier remarked in the heated conversation during the family dinner scene. Chazelle also mentioned that he deliberately ended the film without any scene between Andrew and Fletcher after the performance, as he believes their competitive relationship to be unresolved.

* The studio originally gave Damien Chazelle a note saying "He's good at drumming, we get it" in an attempt to try and take out the ending drum solo. Chazelle disagreed and kept the drum solo in the film.

* The title of the film refers to many things: the first complex jazz piece Andrew learned and performed with Fletcher's band, a common neck injury from car accidents, one of which was depicted during the film, the beating of a drum similar to the cracking or lashing of a whip, and, of course, the abuse he suffers under Fletcher.

Members: @shadow_priest_x @europe1 @jeicex @MusterX @Coolthulu @Scott Parker 27 @the muntjac @Caveat @sleepwalk @Cubo de Sangre @sickc0d3r @jasonrest29

 

[Guestx]

Just a heads up, everybody. I know everyone will be busy with Christmas shit this coming week, so we're going to skip a week.

The next voting thread will go up next Wednesday.

 

[MusterX]

Whiplash is an incredible story of lose, lose, lose, lose, lose, lose, wiiiinnnnnnnnnnnn!!!!!. What can I say about this film? Its well made, there is no doubt, but is it accurate to Jazz and music in general? Of that I'm not sure but I know that Fletcher, played by J.K. Simmons is obsessive about music, and really, about perfection. Fletcher brings guys up from the lesser bands and orchestras, always on the look out for talent. There is tension in all the scenes in this movie, brought on predominantly by Fletcher's ruthless dissection of his students.

Andrew, played by Miles Teller, grins in delight at his first practice session, oblivious to the reality of the Fletcher monster. Everyone else in the orchestra looks like they are going to vomit as Fletcher enters the room. The only thing matching Fletcher's ire and razor blade wit is his ability to hear tempo and tone. His first, in fact all, his interactions with Andrew leave Andrew beaten and broken both mentally and physically. He relentlessly brutalizes Andrew to the point where Andrew is willing to have a car crash and then run bloody to his chair to try to not miss his chance to be great. When Andrew finally cracks he tackles Fletcher on stage and tries to open a can of whoop ass before he is dragged away screaming and subsequently kicked out of school.

All this becomes the lead in for a spectacular last half hour of the film. Andrew gives an anonymous deposition that Fletcher is a maniac and Fletcher is fired from his job. Andrew Gives up on his dream and packs up his drums. The two have broken each other, drop the curtain, que the credits. Wrong. Andrew sees Fletcher playing at a local Jazz club and Fletcher explains to Andrew that he is looking for greatness and greatness can never be found through the two most hurtful words that can be said, "good job." Fletcher reveals through a story about Charlie Parker that after being treated the way Fletcher treats his students, Charlie Parker played the greatest solo of all time in a song called The Bird. Fletcher says he never did find his Charlie Parker but at least he tried.

Fletcher convinces Andrew to come play at Carnegie Hall for his big chance and then just as they get on Stage, Fletcher reveals that he knows Andrew is the one that got him fired and proceeds to change the music at the last second and fuck Andrew over, one last time. This is where the magic happens. Andrew can't play the music and Fletcher tells him, I guess you just don't have it. Andrew leaves the stage, defeated.

This is the moment where we remember in the Jazz bar, Fletcher, when responding to Andrew's question about discouraging the next Charlie Parker, said, "Charlie Parker would never be discouraged." Andrew walks back on stage and takes over, leading the orchestra in for the song Caravan, against Fletcher's wishes. This is the moment when Fletcher finally gets his Charlie Parker moment and he seems to recognize it as well. This is the climax of the movie, this is the moment when both Fletcher and Andrew win. Specifically there is a moment when Fletcher fades out as Andrew drums. It is the moment when the student has surpassed the master.

The final song of the movie is called Caravan and it runs about 9 minutes but the moment when the first half of the song ends and Andrew begins his solo is the climax of this film. At around 7 seconds in you will see Fletcher fade out as Andrew becomes his Charlie Parker. This is the moment that has been relentlessly building for the first hour and forty minutes of the film. Watch at least the first 10 seconds of this clip and see Fletcher fade out as his student becomes great.



The interesting thing about this film is there is no falling action, there is no denouement. The climax of the film happens in the final 9 minutes, and really in the final 4:50 and then abruptly ends. Taken alone, if one had not seen the film and just viewed the final 9 minutes, it would be cool enough as is but considering the lead up to this climatic rendition of Caravan, it is absolutely spectacular.

9/10

Here is a bonus video of Charlie Parker playing The Bird.

 

[BisexualMMA]

Fantastic movie with an effective overall message. It took Simmons' abuse and relentless drive to push Teller to develop his abilities, but it took Reiser's unconditional love to have him be able to use them effectively. As Charlie Sheen states in Platoon, he is the product of these "two fathers." Teller would never have achieved his potential without both. With only Simmons, he would have been broken. With only Reiser, he would have been ordinary.

 

[chickenluver]

I have mixed feelings about this one. It's biggest plus for me is being a film that understands and appreciates Jazz as a serious art form, as well as clearly having a great love and affection for the music. This can also be seen in Chazelle's follow up La La Land.

The performances from Teller and Simmons are very good. Details such as making Teller practice on camera to the point of exhaustion and bloodying up his hands really add to the character. He seems to willingly become anti-social in order to dedicate himself to music, rather than doing so because he lacks the ability to function socially.

The editing during the musical performances is fantastic. Chazelle has a real eye and ear for musical numbers imo. The finale is especially well done. All the angles and quick cuts, such as a shot of the brass on a punctuating note, really brings the scene to life.

So I really like MusterX's take on the ending, as quoted here:

This is the moment where we remember in the Jazz bar, Fletcher, when responding to Andrew's question about discouraging the next Charlie Parker, said, "Charlie Parker would never be discouraged." Andrew walks back on stage and takes over, leading the orchestra in for the song Caravan, against Fletcher's wishes. This is the moment when Fletcher finally gets his Charlie Parker moment and he seems to recognize it as well. This is the climax of the movie, this is the moment when both Fletcher and Andrew win.

Yet these quotations from Simmons and Chazelle, while not exactly contradicting MusterX's interpretation, seem to paint a different picture by questioning if it was all worth it. Chazelle even states Andrew will die young and broke? WTF?

I also like what Chazelle says about the conflict between Andrew and Fletcher being unresolved. Yeah Fletcher probably feels a certain satisfaction about pushing the kid to greatness, but he would probably still hate him for getting him fired.

* When asked about the film's ending J.K. Simmons claimed that he and writer-director Damien Chazelle wanted "to inspire discussion and debate and not decide - are we happy for Andrew Neimann or are we lamenting his loss of humanity. The debate I love, is how far is too far? How much is too much? Is it worth it? This kind of relentless abuse might be necessary and appropriate if you're training Navy Seals, but I don't know if it's appropriate in a music school. But it's there, and it can be productive; there's no denying that. From my own perspective, I'd rather have a pretty girlfriend than go work with this guy and have my hands bleed all the time. I would have made a different choice."

* In an interview with Screen Crush, Damien Chazelle stated the ending implied Andrew's future would be like Charlie Parker, where he would rather die drunk and broke at the age of 34. This was earlier remarked in the heated conversation during the family dinner scene. Chazelle also mentioned that he deliberately ended the film without any scene between Andrew and Fletcher after the performance, as he believes their competitive relationship to be unresolved.

I was all ready to go into what I didn't like about the film, but I feel I may have misunderstood it. The problem for me was I didn't really buy the idea of an insane drill instructor music teacher. Simmons performance would have fit right in with the first half of Full Metal Jacket, but he seemed like a really over the top character for his position.

More so than that, my real issue with the film was that it seemed to be presenting the idea that this type of tyrannical instruction was beneficial, necessary even. The part that really pissed me off was the story Fletcher told in the Jazz club. He claimed that Charlie Parker participated in a cutting contest (basically battle of the bands for soloists) early in his career before he was the pro he became. He gets blown off the stage and (famous drummer for Count Basie's orchestra) Jo Jones
throws a cymbal at his head. Fletcher states this almost decapitated him, but of course goes on to say Parker never got discouraged and that's why he was the GOAT.

The problem with this is that Fletcher changed a detail which falsely characterized the entire story. Jo Jones did NOT throw a cymbal at Charlie Parker's head, almost decapitating him. Jo Jones threw a cymbal in front of his feet, which was the STANDARDIZED METHOD of telling someone to get off the stage because they've been outplayed. The point is that it was not the aggressively violent act that Fletcher makes it out to be in an effort to justify his extreme teaching methods.

I said I may have misunderstood, because the above quotations from Simmons and Chazelle question Fletcher's methods and Andrew's extreme commitment, and also take some of the positivity out of the ending. And I suppose one could say it's Fletcher himself who lied about the details of that story for his own ends. It still kind of rubs me the wrong way though.

 

[MusterX]

So I really like MusterX's take on the ending, as quoted here:


Yet these quotations from Simmons and Chazelle, while not exactly contradicting MusterX's interpretation, seem to paint a different picture by questioning if it was all worth it. Chazelle even states Andrew will die young and broke? WTF?

I think its just a way of recognizing that to be the greatest at anything requires obsession and a willingness to give up everything for it. The director made it a point to illustrate how Andrew gave up the girl in his pursuit of greatness and then stuck it in our face when Andrew reconsidered his mistake and called her, only to find out she had a boyfriend. While pursuing greatness a person sort of has to be willing to die young or whatever the cost associated with being labeled as GOAT.

We do know though that Fletcher lamented never having produced a Charlie Parker, he says as much in the Jazz bar scene. That's why I included the final drum sequence where Andrew begins his solo and Fletcher fades out. That was the climax moment of the film where Andrew finally silences Fletcher and gets his moment of greatness and the moment where Fletcher gets his Charlie Parker. There is a price to pay though for being that single minded in your pursuits.

 

[chickenluver]

I think its just a way of recognizing that to be the greatest at anything requires obsession and a willingness to give up everything for it. The director made it a point to illustrate how Andrew gave up the girl in his pursuit of greatness and then stuck it in our face when Andrew reconsidered his mistake and called her, only to find out she had a boyfriend. While pursuing greatness a person sort of has to be willing to die young or whatever the cost associated with being labeled as GOAT.

I don't agree that you have to be willing to die young. When pursuing greatness I think of sacrificing time, friends, romantic relationships, financial stability, etc. Dying young is the opposite of greatness, it's wasted potential. Charlie Parker died at 34 because his substance addiction was greatest than his dedication to music. This is a guy who showed up to recording sessions with no instrument because he had pawned his saxophone for heroin money, and would have to borrow some cheap plastic sax. Yes he reached a level of proficiency that others strive for decades to reach, and he left behind recordings that possibly qualify him as the GOAT of his particular style and instrument, but he still squandered his talent at the end, and eventually lost his life. The coroner who worked on Parker thought his was the body of a man between 50 and 60 years old.

I don't know, now that I'm thinking about it, for Chazelle to say Andrew ends up broke and dead at 34 kind of turns this movie into a serious downer for me.

As far as Fletcher goes, I understand his motivations, but I'm with JK Simmons when he says this "This kind of relentless abuse might be necessary and appropriate if you're training Navy Seals, but I don't know if it's appropriate in a music school."

 

[MusterX]

I don't agree that you have to be willing to die young. When pursuing greatness I think of sacrificing time, friends, romantic relationships, financial stability, etc. Dying young is the opposite of greatness, it's wasted potential. Charlie Parker died at 34 because his substance addiction was greatest than his dedication to music. This is a guy who showed up to recording sessions with no instrument because he had pawned his saxophone for heroin money, and would have to borrow some cheap plastic sax. Yes he reached a level of proficiency that others strive for decades to reach, and he left behind recordings that possibly qualify him as the GOAT of his particular style and instrument, but he still squandered his talent at the end, and eventually lost his life. The coroner who worked on Parker thought his was the body of a man between 50 and 60 years old.

I don't know, now that I'm thinking about it, for Chazelle to say Andrew ends up broke and dead at 34 kind of turns this movie into a serious downer for me.

As far as Fletcher goes, I understand his motivations, but I'm with JK Simmons when he says this "This kind of relentless abuse might be necessary and appropriate if you're training Navy Seals, but I don't know if it's appropriate in a music school."

Yea but would Charlie Parker have been Charlie Parker if he was straight laced and never drank or did drugs. I'm not so sure he would be. I've seen this with writers and artists of all kinds. People like that have a tortured soul and it may be a driving factor when it comes to their excellence. You sober up Jimmy Hendrix and all of a sudden he isn't Jimmy Hendrix anymore. That guy was was doing LSD during concerts. I think this movie does a really good job with this topic because often there is a price for greatness. Hunter S. Thompson without all the drug fueled escapades never invents Gonzo journalism.

In the movie Fletcher tells the class that his great former student died in a car crash. Later we find out he actually hung himself. He was a stellar musician according to Fletcher but tortured like many greats are he ends up as a suicide. I'm not sure Fletcher could face that price and maybe that's why he said he died in a car accident. Maybe Fletcher felt somehow responsible.

 

[chickenluver]

Yea but would Charlie Parker have been Charlie Parker if he was straight laced and never drank or did drugs. I'm not so sure he would be. I've seen this with writers and artists of all kinds. People like that have a tortured soul and it may be a driving factor when it comes to their excellence. You sober up Jimmy Hendrix and all of a sudden he isn't Jimmy Hendrix anymore. That was was doing LSD during concerts. I think this movie does a really good job with this topic because often there is a price for greatness. Hunter S. Thompson without all the drug fueled escapades never invents Gonzo journalism.

I won't get into the hypothetical of what if Parker had never touched drugs. I don't know if there were any Jazz musicians of that time who didn't at least smoke a little tea and drink a little hooch. Either way, I don't believe that had anything to do with his dedication to music. If anything what this film gets right is that Parker took the criticism he got as motivation to practice more. I think if he had kicked his habit instead of succumbing to it he would have become even greater. I say that because Miles Davis and John Coltrane did exactly that. Parker lived long enough to introduce innovation, but with another 20 or 30 years he could have developed his style even further, and most importantly would have left many more recordings demonstrating his virtuosity.

Hendrix is a little different because his death was an accident due to reckless drinking, rather than the culminating effect of years of substance abuse, but it does fit with his generally reckless drug use. His use of psychoactive drugs certainly had an effect on his music and performances, in a positive way imo. But just as with Charlie Parker, if Hendrix had at least been less careless he could have lived longer and been even greater. I believe if Hendrix had lived another 10 years the music he made in the 70's would have surpassed that of the 60's.

Hunter S. Thompson.... yeah going to have to agree on that. Gonzo journalism is inseparable from altered states.

I don't mean to downplay what drugs can do to the creative process. Anything that makes someone think and feel differently will have an effect on creatively for better or worse. But just because someone was great at something, and also a junkie, doesn't mean being a junkie had anything to do with why they were great, or that they wouldn't have been greater without being a junkie.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Without reading anyone else's thoughts here yet, my synopsis would be that this is a film about triumph and woe centered around two pricks who deserve each other. Great fuckin' movie.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Fletcher exhibited my style of management. Tense. Brutally honest. Many a laughs he gave me in this film. I crack more jokes than him though. Lessens the causticity.

Andrew was somehow easy to root for and not give a shit about at the same time. His behavior at dinner was selfish and insulting.

Did he bang that chick or not? Without boobie shots who can say?

The first scene where Andrew walks through the sketchy halls to his apartment seemed like it could have been cut.

Reminds me of a saying we had working at the record label. The artist kills the art.

 

[MusterX]

Without reading anyone else's thoughts here yet, my synopsis would be that this is a film about triumph and woe centered around two pricks who deserve each other. Great fuckin' movie.

 

[sickc0d3r]

I'm watching Conan The Barbarian right now (just happened to be on), thinking about what I'd like to say about Whiplash. The first thing that comes to mind is Whiplash is bloodier! There's almost more fucking blood in this movie--about a goddamn college jazz band--than Conan. I love this little story and I love that is hurled at us like a cymbal to the head. It reminded me a lot of The Black Swan, by the way.

I know dick about making music, but I felt the obsession in Neiman, and I understood that is what it takes to be great at something, or more specifically, people who are great artists often share this trait of self involvement that makes them unbearable to others.

And thank god for the portrayal of Fletcher as someone who is willing to be hated on the off chance that he will influence a talent like Neiman. Reminded me of athletics coaches I grew up around. In those days they never pulled punches or babied anyone.

Both the student and the teacher were insufferable pricks, but maybe Neiman was right:
Jim: Dying broke and drunk and full of heroin at the age of 34 is not exactly my idea of success.

Andrew: I'd rather die drunk, broke at 34 and have people at a dinner table talk about me than live to be rich and sober at 90 and nobody remembered who I was.

Uncle Frank: Ah, but your friends will remember you, that's the point.

Andrew: None of us were friends with Charlie Parker. *That's* the point.

The average person may not understand it but maybe without that kind of thinking we'd never get to experience true greatness.

Another thing that caught me a little off guard was the fact that nobody in the band was happy. They all looked like they were scared and under pressure to be there. It was a perfectly miserable situation really, is it like that in real life? I always assumed the band geeks loved their hobby more than most.

In any case, the protagonist and antagonist played off each other beautifully, and in the end it was an extremely satisfying movie. No matter what their differences, Fletcher only really cared that he was finally in the presence of a true artist and master of his craft. Just a gorgeous little story that took me completely by surprise and even inspired me a little. 9/10.

 

[jasonrest29]

Without reading anyone else's thoughts here yet, my synopsis would be that this is a film about triumph and woe centered around two pricks who deserve each other. Great fuckin' movie.

Im not getting how you see the student as a "prick". How does he deserve that? Because of the way he treated the girl? He didnt punch her in the mouth. He simply stated as he sees it, dating atm wont help in his pursuits of becoming great.
selfish? yes. but its a necessary evil justified for such a great pursuit. whether or not it insults is up to her.

Or was is something else?

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Im not getting how you see the student as a "prick". How does he deserve that? Because of the way he treated the girl? He didnt punch her in the mouth. He simply stated as he sees it, dating atm wont help in his pursuits of becoming great.
selfish? yes. but its a necessary evil justified for such a great pursuit. whether or not it insults is up to her.

Or was is something else?

I'm also factoring in how he treated family at the dinner table and the other drummers.

 

[JayPettryMMA]

I watched Whiplash a few months ago, so it's still fresh in my head, but I might as well watch it again. It was my film of the year in 2014, above Boyhood and Imitation Game and Birdman. Those were great, but this was something special. It's a story about obsession. One of my buddies called this Full Metal Cymbals, and I gotta say, that's a pretty fantastic name for it.

For reference - main character = Teller (his actual name), instructor = Simmons. I know their names are actually Andrew and Fletcher, but eh.

For starters, I'll point out something that I'm not crazy about - Miles Teller is not and does not look like an 18/19 year old. He's got the mid to late 20s face, and that'd be accurate since he's a bit younger than I am. That was one of the few things I didn't buy - that the main character is the age he is portraying, and it struck me almost as badly as a 30something Stockard Channing playing teenager Rizzo in Grease. Yes, most of the cast was way older than high school, but she was even worse.

I'm a fan of what BisexualMMA said about his two fathers raising him. Reiser was the nurturing and understanding, and Simmons was the tough love. Teller needed both to get where he ended up, but I have a serious question about this film:

Did anyone actually win or succeed at the end of this? The only upside is that Teller blew the doors off with his solo at the very end, which gave us some idea that he'd be successful later on, but Teller was out of the conservatory and Simmons got the boot as well. Who knows how his relationship with Simmons would end up, for all we know, Simmons might have thought he upstaged him and gave him the boot. Some scout could have picked him up and left Simmons behind. Lot of possibilities.

MusterX pointed out that it was all lose until the big success at the end, but we had some allusions throughout the film that led me to believe that even if Teller could pull it off and become great, his life would not end up well. One of his major inspirations was Buddy Rich, who was an incredible drummer (top 5 GOAT) but as it was pointed out, did not take lessons and did not practice, and he was said to be quite unpleasant to be around. Teller sacrificed nearly everything to get good, so the question remains - was it worth it? If he dies drunk and alone at 34, would it all be worth it, with little-to-no family, no friends or love life, no job beyond working at a restaurant, and just misery but still immensely talented? I'm not so sure.

Simmons blows it out of the park with his performance. It's just tremendous. The small scenes, like him getting to know Teller in the hallway at the beginning so he can use those traits against him later on when he berates him, it's just something else.

I found it fascinating that a major plot point involves the character getting into an accident and then rushing back to work, which was paralleled in real life when the director was supposedly in a major accident but still managed to show up to work on time. The devotion to the craft is significant. He, that is, the character, the actor, and the director, were ALL willing to bleed for this picture tells me it is the product of love. That is why it stand far and above so many other films, especially lately. I'd be willing to say it's one of my top five movies in the past five years. And before you ask, I'd probably have to say Her, Mad Max Fury Road, Hell or High Water, and probably Gone Girl round out that list. Drive was six years ago so it fell out of that list.

Small plot question - we saw Andrew toss the notebook on the chair at the first performance, so did Fletcher take it and hide it to see if Andrew could step up? Or was it just lost and he lucked out? Or was it a plan for Andrew to "lose it" and then step up knowing he could hack it without music? I'm not sure Andrew would be nefarious enough to plan that kind of thing, and his surprise looked genuine. Food for thought.

I'm a prog and classic rock fan, have been since I was a kid, and I have to say, the solo at the end of the film is one of the more impressive drum solos I've ever witnessed, live or not. Even knowing that Teller played some ~40% of the music is fantastic to me, because that level of talent isn't something that could come easy. I know jazz drumming is frenetic and much more intense than most other, so it's something magical.

9/10 easy. I love this film.

 

[JayPettryMMA]

Now that Phase 5 is over, I have some thoughts - Does anyone have any interest in applying a theme to the next round of picks? I don't mean like one genre where we have to watch gangster movies for three months, but I mean like some sort of classification to each of our sets of picks. Something to mix it up this rotation.

For example, four pictures we loved growing up but have not seen in a long time, to see if they hold up. Four of your all-time favorites. Four movies you hate. Four movies you always meant to watch but never did.

Anything like that, but it's just a thought. I'll bring this up more in the phase 5 wrap-up thread that will probably come soon.

 

[MusterX]

MusterX pointed out that it was all lose until the big success at the end, but we had some allusions throughout the film that led me to believe that even if Teller could pull it off and become great, his life would not end up well. One of his major inspirations was Buddy Rich, who was an incredible drummer (top 5 GOAT) but as it was pointed out, did not take lessons and did not practice, and he was said to be quite unpleasant to be around. Teller sacrificed nearly everything to get good, so the question remains - was it worth it? If he dies drunk and alone at 34, would it all be worth it, with little-to-no family, no friends or love life, no job beyond working at a restaurant, and just misery but still immensely talented? I'm not so sure.

Small plot question - we saw Andrew toss the notebook on the chair at the first performance, so did Fletcher take it and hide it to see if Andrew could step up? Or was it just lost and he lucked out? Or was it a plan for Andrew to "lose it" and then step up knowing he could hack it without music? I'm not sure Andrew would be nefarious enough to plan that kind of thing, and his surprise looked genuine. Food for thought.

I think for Andrew it was worth it, even if he was dead at 34 because he said he would rather be remembered than have friends or a good long life.

To your second point, I don't think there is any doubt in my mind that Fletcher took the notebook. He even tells Andrew in the Jazz bar near the end that everything he did was to inspire Andrew, not the other guys. He set that up to throw Andrew into the fire with no music but Andrew had memorized the music.

 

[JayPettryMMA]

I think for Andrew it was worth it, even if he was dead at 34 because he said he would rather be remembered than have friends or a good long life.

Yeah, where he sat with his family and step brothers, arguing that people talk about Charlie Parker even though he had no friends and nothing but the music, and that it would be worth it to him. But as he dealt with sacrifice after sacrifice, losing this and that along the way, I don't know if he reevaluated his choices.

The thing that makes me think he chose against it is after he was kicked out of the conservatory, he stopped drumming. So how he was able to pull off that drum solo at the end, after months of no practice whatsoever, I'll never know. Maybe that's the natural skill of Buddy Rich flowing through him. Who knows.

To your second point, I don't think there is any doubt in my mind that Fletcher took the notebook. He even tells Andrew in the Jazz bar near the end that everything he did was to inspire Andrew, not the other guys. He set that up to throw Andrew into the fire with no music but Andrew had memorized the music.

My main thought was that, that Fletcher knew Andrew was so singularly devoted to the craft that he'd have memorized it by then. He knew he had the gift, he just had to beat it out of him. Give him the right opportunities to shine, smash him into the right mold he wanted, and make a master. I'm so happy the director ended it right after the solo, so that we would have these questions.

 

[europe1]

Now that Phase 5 is over, I have some thoughts - Does anyone have any interest in applying a theme to the next round of picks? I don't mean like one genre where we have to watch gangster movies for three months, but I mean like some sort of classification to each of our sets of picks. Something to mix it up this rotation.

For example, four pictures we loved growing up but have not seen in a long time, to see if they hold up. Four of your all-time favorites. Four movies you hate. Four movies you always meant to watch but never did.

Anything like that, but it's just a thought. I'll bring this up more in the phase 5 wrap-up thread that will probably come soon.

No reason we can't do that now. Plus themes can be so broad and malleable that one could pretty much slot any four films into a single unifying theme. Hell, you can argue we've been using a theme all along (4 movies I think are interesting). If we really want to have a theme, there needs to be involentary restrictions, that's the way you draw something cohesive out of it. Like if the previous poster picks the theme for you. Or if we do 4-films from one country (no repeat countries).