SHERDOG MOVIE CLUB: Week 174 - The Shining

[MusterX]

It is the best explanation, but where's anything to corroborate (besides Danny having a bear)?

I've been trying to ignore the molestation theory, but Jack is so creepy with Danny during the scene when he goes to get his firetruck.. That lens certainly puts an even darker mood over the film.

Listen guys, Kubrick changed the story from the book to the film, in some fairly large ways. That's why King didn't like it. One thing you have to realize about Stanley Kubrick is that he was obsessive about every aspect of the film all the way down to set design and what appeared in the shots. In the novel, it wasn't a bear costume, it was a dog costume. Kubrick changed it to a bear costume and then he specifically shot Danny on a bear pillow.

Also, what happens to children who are sexually and physically abused? Some of them fracture and get multiple personalities or imaginary little friends they talk to, just like Danny.

Kubrick is probably the most OCD director of all time bruh's. People close to him say he would read over the same script for YEARS making adjustments to it. He had control of every tiny detail. I apologize in advance for any mind blowings that may occur from this point forward in the thread.

Jack was reading a magazine in the lobby while he waited to interview for the job. Guess what magazine? Playgirl...not Playboy, Playgirl.

This issue of Playgirl.

The first article catches my eye, The Selling of David Soul, but dat next article, Incest:Why parents sleep with their children, is your smoking gun. In the book its not so clear, Jack probably doesn't molest Danny in King's novel but Kubrick made changes and it seems he wanted to indicate Jack both sexually and physically abused Danny. Kubrick is messing with your mind even in the composition of the shots.

Also, when the doctor discusses Danny with Wendy there is a paper on the desk titled, Illness as a metaphor.

The article describes how doctors can mistake physical illness when its caused by mental problems like abuse. Basically Kubrick is saying the doctor is thinking Danny is physically ill and missing that his illness is a metaphor for the sexual abuse he suffers from his father.

Bonus detail concerning how specific Kubrick really is. The eyes on the movie poster are shaped like the dials on the blood elevator.

 

[FrontNakedChoke]

Also, what happens to children who are sexually and physically abused? Some of them fracture and get multiple personalities or imaginary little friends they talk to, just like Danny.

 

[moreorless87]

I'd agree there does seem to be some hints towards it and honestly what is the Room 237 scene doing? its playing on Jack's carnal desires.

That scene generally might be the scariest bit of cinema ever made and I think you could argue is a very significant influence on Lynch circa Lost Highway with the scenes in Pullman's house in the first half with the slow camera movement and ominous sound design, the same with black room in Under The Skin from a few weeks ago.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

The first article catches my eye, The Selling of David Soul, but dat next article, Incest:Why parents sleep with their children, is your smoking gun.

You got me. Jack was a kiddie-diddler.

Now wasn't there some shit in here related to Kubrick helping fake the moon landing?

 

[E Undead]

Probably my favorite movie of all time.

I think it speaks volumes that there are still SO many Shining references in nowadays cinema and television.

I watch The Shining like once a year, I've probably seen it 15 times by now and I still get goosebumps when Danny has the vision of the two girls laying butchered on the floor for the first time
This camera shot and the cuts, combined with the sound design and especially this short cut:

Spoiler

It's great to see how many things people already pointed out. One has to realize that Kubrick doesn't make "mistakes". After having watched the movie a dozen of times, there are some things I pointed out for myself and as I looked further on the internet, there are even more pieces that can't be "just a mistake".

A few points:

1. Charles Grady =/= Delbert Grady
Charles Grady is the former caretaker, according to the hotel manager. He is the one who butchered his family. He had two daughters of different age. Delbert is the one who Jack encounters in the bar. According to himself, Delbert once had to "correct" his wife and daughters. It seems obvious that Delbert isn't Charles and that Delbert isn't a human being (at least at this point), but a "ghost" or "spirit" OR actually just a hallucination. He was there in the 20's, while Charles was there in the 60's or 50's.

From what we know, Charles killed his two daughters of different age. At this point it should be clear that the twins CAN'T be Charles' daughters, so I assume they're Delbert's girls who were killed basically in the same way.

There were two different Gradys, both killed their family at two different points.

2. Both Gradys seem to be different incarnations of the same "spirit"
And Jack is another one. It's always the same spirit, which is the reason why Delbert tells Jack that he's always been the caretaker.

3. The hotel is obviously haunted and a weird place itself, maybe even "alive", as written in the book
No wonder since once again Stephen King decided to build it on a Indian burial ground.
However, it doesn't take long for the viewer to notice that the whole hotel doesn't make sense at all. Most vieweres already notice that the mase is missing the second or third time they see the the hotel from above.

Not only that. When Hallohan opens the door to the meat locker, some might notice something weird about it. You might see it instantly:

Even if we assume that he changed his hand, the door still opens on the wrong side.

But not only that. Let's compare the hallway after they left the room.

Looks slightly different, doesn't it?

There are so many of these moments in which the hotel actually doesn't make sense at all. Another famous one is the window in the manager's office that's basically impossible.

4. Did the hotel itself trap Jack in a "timeloop", with no chance of escape?
That's actually what I kind of think. But it isn't the Jack from the beginning of the movie, it's just his body possesed by this evil spirit. The movie seems to take place in the specific time period in which the hotel gets him and kills him. From this point on, he's there, forever, both in the past as in the future. Sounds weird at first, but think about it: Everyone of the MC's witnesses all sorts of hallucinations, all people who once were in the hotel. Jack might be dead now, but the spirit that possesed will be there all the time and always was there, having now something like a new "mask" in Jack. That's why you see him in the picture at the end. He himself wasn't there, but the hotel's spirit that got him was there, using his appearance.

I know, point four is more interpretation and not a fact, but that's what I think is actually the case and in my opinion, it doesn't leave too many questions.

5. The last time I saw the movie, I think the whole abuse thing was very obvious
If you know these theories and watch the movie again, it seems really obvious that Jack's drinking caused him to abuse his son. If all the hints don't make it clear for you, atleast there must be something behind it when Wendy instantly thinks that Jack is the reason why Dany has these "wounds". And I think that's actually the truth. I think it didn't happen in Room 237, I think it happened right after Dany asked his father if he would ever hurt him. I think the cutting and score made it obvious to someone who's aware of the theory. But of course, these things one has to decide for oneself.

6. Last remaining question: What's the thing with Room 237?
There are many really good theories about that. All of them seem likely and based on my interpretation so far, all of them are an option. I prefer the idea that what Jack sees inside Room 237 is actually symbolic for what Dany encounters during the abuse by his father. At first, he's attracted (in Dany's case not in a sexual way), but as soon as they get close, in contact, he realizes the "ugly" truth. That's also what Hallohan sees based on his ability to "shine". It also explains why Jack doesn't seem affected by the scene afterwards. It didn't happen to him, it happened to Dany.

Another option is that what Jack encountered is not symbolic, but quite literal. The hotel is simply playing with him, breaking him. However, that doesn't explain anything of that scene, so I prefer a symbolic meaning, which also adds up with his abusive behaviour.

Well, I might make a cut here and wait what other people have to say.

Not going to lie, I find it even hard to google these images. I don't know what's the thing about this movie, but seeing some pictures is still fucking with my mind, especially the bear and Room 237 scenes. No other movie comes somewhat close in doing this to me.

btw: even if you don't like hip hop, simply mute the sound and check out this.
They basically made the whole movie using these puppets. If you skip through it, you see that it's INCREDIBLY accurate. Props to whoever made this

 

[MusterX]

You got me. Jack was a kiddie-diddler.

Now wasn't there some shit in here related to Kubrick helping fake the moon landing?

I don't think we're in the deep end of the pool yet. Check out this stuff. In fact, there is so much red and blue in the film, I can only post a small portion of it.

Wendy left hand knife - blue

Wendy right hand knife - red

Wendy left hand knife - blue

Wendy right hand knife - red

If we examine the twins, we all know about the blue dresses, and the red blood.

In fact, we see that a lot with Wendy and Danny.

Red and Blue

When Danny is riding his tricycle he's wearing boys overalls, red and blue.

The back of his tricycle makes it look like he is wearing the girl version, a dress.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

There were two different Gradys, both killed their family at two different points.

Thanks. Didn't realize there were two of 'em.

I don't think we're in the deep end of the pool yet. Check out this stuff. In fact, there is so much red and blue in the film, I can only post a small portion of it.

Wendy left hand knife - blue

Wendy right hand knife - red

Wendy left hand knife - blue

Wendy right hand knife - red

If we examine the twins, we all know about the blue dresses, and the red blood.

In fact, we see that a lot with Wendy and Danny.

Red and Blue

When Danny is riding his tricycle he's wearing boys overalls, red and blue.

The back of his tricycle makes it look like he is wearing the girl version, a dress.

Interesting. Don't know what to make of it though.

 

[MusterX]

Interesting. Don't know what to make of it though.

I don't know exactly. I do know that Kubrick put a SHIT-TON of details in this film, in all his films, but especially in The Shining. As I said in the other post, there is so much blue and red I wouldn't even try to post it all. Everything in the color design points to the blue of the girls dresses and the red of the blood.

I don't even claim ownership of this stuff because it took a lot of people a long time to discover all the stuff that went into The Shining.

Even the carpet and the key leading into Room 237 are red and blue.

The thing is, you have to combine the color scheme with the idea of mirrors and doors. 237 is a door leading in facing a mirror.

When Danny talks to Tony its in the mirror.

Mirrors and doors all over the place.

When Wendy sees Redrum its in the mirror on a door.

We see Jack and Danny in the mirror during the weird fatherly love scene.

Even when Jack sees the true form of the Room 237 hag, its when he looks in the mirror. That brings us to the twins. Red and blue, right? But also mirrored. If you take the dead twin that is facing up and turn her over on her stomach, she's in the same position of the girl on her stomach. They are perfectly mirrored.

Mirrors are generally sees as doorways into other dimensions, or realities, different places. If you combine the mirroring of the film with the red and blue mirroring between especially Dany/Wendy and the Twins, it seems like Dany/Wendy = The Twins.

They aren't literally the twins, there were murdered twins, but we are being told through color and mirrors and doors that Danny is seeing a psychic premonition of Jack trying to axe murder Danny and Wendy. We aren't being told outright, we are being told through color and symmetry. Its a fairly detailed process Kubrick went through and I'm not sure what it means but he put it all in there for a reason.

 

[MusterX]

The door opening and the bruises on Danny's arm are the only times the ghost physically affect anything right?

It was probably Jack putting the bruises on Danny. What if there are no ghosts at all. What if its just Danny having psychic premonitions of his abusive father's attempt to kill them?

Roadrunner = The Shining for me now
meep meep

Thing is, there is some odd shit with that as well. Seems like Kubrick went all out on this film and layering of meaning. In the first scene where the doctor visits Danny we see Wendy looking on and hanging on the wall is a Goofy doll.

Wendy is dressed as Goofy, all the way down to the yellow shoes.

The cartoon aspect of the film is really creepy to me. We also see Danny at one point wearing a Bugs Bunny shirt, and he has a lot of cartoon stickers on his bedroom door. Halloran asks Danny, "What's up doc." When Jack axes the door down he says, "Little pigs, little pigs, let me in." Wendy refers to the mazelike structure of the hotel and says they might have to leave breadcrumbs which is a reference to Hansel and Gretal (and the witch)

When Danny tells the doctor about his imaginary friend Tony she asks if Tony is one of his animals, Danny says no but behind the doctor on a shelf is a tiger peaking out from behind some other stuff. Also, Frosted Flakes is Tony the Tiger.

You also get that Roadrunner cartoon in the background more than once during the film. This clip really brings all the cartoon references front and center with a mix of horror. If you watch this clip, and I hope you do, Roadrunner is playing in the background and when Wendy sneaks and gets the bat, the sounds of the cartoon are the sneaking sound as she creeps out the door so Danny doesn't see it.

Looks slightly different, doesn't it?

There are so many of these moments in which the hotel actually doesn't make sense at all. Another famous one is the window in the manager's office that's basically impossible.

I was trying to think about some of the things that make this movie so creepy.
I think the use of music and background sounds are highly effective.

Kubrick has been a very bad boy. He constructed some things so subtle you would never notice it and it probably explains why the film can be so atmospheric and creepy. As others have said, Kubrick doesn't make errors and he certainly doesn't make a lot of them in the same film. There is a thing called a continuity error in which from one shot to another something has been inadvertently moved. This happens multiple times in The Shining.

Chair behind Jack disappears.

Curio moves to the other wall and pictures on the back wall are gone.

All of the chairs on the right shift several feet from when Jack walks in to when Wendy walks in.

In fact, this is just a sample of all the stuff Kubrick moved around during the filming. Here is one where the chair behind Wendy moves.

There are multiple other examples but why would Kubrick do this? The online theory is that haunted houses usually have moving furniture, chairs that rock, etc., so Kubrick in his own very subtle way has added that element into The Shining in such a subtle way you might never notice it but subconsciously it adds to the "creepyness" of the film that can be hard to express why its creepy. Here is one more where the Maze map is in one place, then later is in another place.

When this stuff is pointed out it makes you think, why would Kubrick do something so out there, its so risky, but it turns out its genius IMO. The reason why its genius is because I can almost guarantee you none of us noticed such things, especially on first viewing. We simply don't notice it but its part of what makes it such an uneasy watch. We don't know exactly why everything is so fucked up feeling in this film but it is.

 

[LHWBelt]

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Here's a quick list of all movies watched by the SMC. Or if you prefer, here's a more detailed examination.

Our Director
Spookmaster 3000

Our Star
White Mans Burden

Film Overview​

Premise: A family heads to an isolated hotel for the winter where a sinister presence influences the father into violence, while his psychic son sees horrific forebodings from both past and future.​

Budget: $19 million

Box Office: $44.4 million


​

Trivia
(Courtesy of IMDB)

* Because Danny Lloyd was so young, and since it was his first acting job, Stanley Kubrick was highly protective of the child. During the shooting of the movie, Lloyd was under the impression that the film he was making was a drama, not a horror movie. In fact, when Wendy carries Danny away while shouting at Jack in the Colorado Lounge, she is actually carrying a life-size dummy, so Lloyd would not have to be in the scene. He only realized the truth several years later, when he was shown a heavily edited version of the film. He did not see the uncut version of the film until he was seventeen, eleven years after he had made it.

* The idea for Danny Lloyd to move his finger when he was talking as Tony was his own. He did it spontaneously during his very first audition.

* For the scene in which Jack breaks down the bathroom door, the props department built a door that could be easily broken. However, Jack Nicholson had worked as a volunteer fire marshal and tore it apart far too easily. The props department were then forced to build a stronger door.

* To get Jack Nicholson in the right agitated mood, he was only fed cheese sandwiches for two weeks, which he hates.

* According to Shelley Duvall, the infamous "Here's Johnny!" scene took three days to film and the use of sixty doors.

* The throwing around of the tennis ball inside the Overlook Hotel was Jack Nicholson's idea. The script originally only specified that "Jack is not working".

* Despite Stanley Kubrick's fierce demands on everyone, Jack Nicholson admitted to having a good working relationship with him. It was with Shelley Duvall that he was a completely different director. He allegedly picked on her more than anyone else, as seen in the documentaries Making 'The Shining' (1980) and Stanley Kubrick: A Life in Pictures (2001). He would really lose his temper with her, even going so far as to say that she was wasting the time of everyone on the set. She later reflected that he was probably pushing her to her limits to get the best out of her, and that she wouldn't trade the experience for anything, but it was not something she ever wished to repeat.


Members: @europe1 @MusterX @Cubo de Sangre @FrontNakedChoke @Tufts @chickenluver @Scott Parker 27 @Yotsuya @jei @LHWBelt @moreorless87 @HARRISON_3 @Bullitt68 @HenryFlower @Zer @Rimbaud82

I didn't rewatch this but I watched it this year for the first time and I think I still remember it more or less. I thought Shelly Duvall was terrible and ruined the movie. I also thought it was quite a bit overrated but maybe at the time it was ground breaking but I watched it about 40 years later. I can't remember a lot of it other than Nicholas going slowly crazy.

 

[MusterX]

I didn't rewatch this but I watched it this year for the first time and I think I still remember it more or less. I thought Shelly Duvall was terrible and ruined the movie. I also thought it was quite a bit overrated but maybe at the time it was ground breaking but I watched it about 40 years later. I can't remember a lot of it other than Nicholas going slowly crazy.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

It was probably Jack putting the bruises on Danny. What if there are no ghosts at all. What if its just Danny having psychic premonitions of his abusive father's attempt to kill them?

We know Scatman and Danny shine together. We know Danny asked about room 237 and Scatman said stay the fuck away. All indicators are that something bad happened there in the past and it was shining on through the hotel and shit.

 

[MusterX]

We know Scatman and Danny shine together. We know Danny asked about room 237 and Scatman said stay the fuck away. All indicators are that something bad happened there in the past and it was shining on through the hotel and shit.

Listen I've been holding back some because not very many people want to discuss this film for some reason. There is a theory that there are no ghosts, there is no haunting. I don't want to get into that right now though. Instead lets do this...

The photograph at the end is the greatest mystery for me. Was Jack in the photo before they ever went there, or did he only appear in it after dying?

That photo is more than meets the eye.

Jack appears in a classic as above, so below, Baphomet/devil pose.

 

[HARRISON_3]

Listen guys, Kubrick changed the story from the book to the film, in some fairly large ways. That's why King didn't like it. One thing you have to realize about Stanley Kubrick is that he was obsessive about every aspect of the film all the way down to set design and what appeared in the shots. In the novel, it wasn't a bear costume, it was a dog costume. Kubrick changed it to a bear costume and then he specifically shot Danny on a bear pillow.

Also, what happens to children who are sexually and physically abused? Some of them fracture and get multiple personalities or imaginary little friends they talk to, just like Danny.

Kubrick is probably the most OCD director of all time bruh's. People close to him say he would read over the same script for YEARS making adjustments to it. He had control of every tiny detail. I apologize in advance for any mind blowings that may occur from this point forward in the thread.

Jack was reading a magazine in the lobby while he waited to interview for the job. Guess what magazine? Playgirl...not Playboy, Playgirl.

This issue of Playgirl.

The first article catches my eye, The Selling of David Soul, but dat next article, Incest:Why parents sleep with their children, is your smoking gun. In the book its not so clear, Jack probably doesn't molest Danny in King's novel but Kubrick made changes and it seems he wanted to indicate Jack both sexually and physically abused Danny. Kubrick is messing with your mind even in the composition of the shots.

Also, when the doctor discusses Danny with Wendy there is a paper on the desk titled, Illness as a metaphor.

The article describes how doctors can mistake physical illness when its caused by mental problems like abuse. Basically Kubrick is saying the doctor is thinking Danny is physically ill and missing that his illness is a metaphor for the sexual abuse he suffers from his father.

Bonus detail concerning how specific Kubrick really is. The eyes on the movie poster are shaped like the dials on the blood elevator.

Great info, thanks for sharing.

It's my annual ritual to watch The Shining every Fall.

Spoiler

When I learned it wasn't actually filmed in the winter time, a part of me died inside.

I try to not think about that when I watch it.

 

[MusterX]

When I learned it wasn't actually filmed in the winter time, a part of me died inside.

I try to not think about that when I watch it.

What? All the snow is fake? Mind blown.

 

[HARRISON_3]

What? All the snow is fake? Mind blown.

Yea.

Apparently it was tons of salt and crushed Styrofoam.

I still consider it to be a "fall/winter movie, " but I was nonetheless disappointed when I read that.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

Listen I've been holding back some because not very many people want to discuss this film for some reason. There is a theory that there are no ghosts, there is no haunting. I don't want to get into that right now though. Instead lets do this...



That photo is more than meets the eye.

Jack appears in a classic as above, so below, Baphomet/devil pose.

That's definitely a Baphomet pose. Fuckin' Kubrick. So what's the message with four fingers?

If there are no ghosts then how'd Jack get out of dry storage?

 

[MusterX]

That's definitely a Baphomet pose. Fuckin' Kubrick. So what's the message with four fingers?

If there are no ghosts then how'd Jack get out of dry storage?

I don't know man. Kubrick layered The Shining in so much subliminal stuff with colors, moving furniture, occult symbology, symmetry of shots, mirrors, doors, psychic premonitions, and then for shits and giggles he mixed in some cartoon stuff. I just don't know what it all means and maybe that was the joke Kubrick was playing on all of us. He's a gdamn master of cinema. When Halloran asks Danny if he's afraid of the Overlook, Kubrick made sure to shoot it with knives in the background pointed at Danny's head. Also notice how Halloran and Danny mirror each other with their hand positions. Kubrick was precise in every shot.

Want something else to blow your mind? In the modern adaptation of IT, the most recent one, we learn that Halloran saved some of the people in the fire. He had a premonition of some white supremicists blocking the doors and setting it on fire. Supposedly in the lore of it Halloran is one of the only adults in existence than can see IT in its true form and not go mad. That is, before Jack Torrance put an axe in his chest.

The number of details in this film is overwhelming. I won't even touch on them all by the time this thread ends they are so numerous. When Ullman tells Jack about the axe murder he says the girls are about 8 and 10. We just assume the twins are Grady's daughters he axe murdered but Ullman described them as 8 and 10, that's not twins. Also, Kubrick shot the twins mirrored from an original. Check this out.

In each pic, the tall twin is slightly smiling and the short twin is more serious looking and they are mirrored serious on left, serious on right, smiling on right, smiling on left. Just like they are also mirrored in their death scene, one face down and one face up in same position.

Here is another one. When Wendy and Danny are watching T.V., there are no power cords of any kind running to that T.V. bro. It should not be running. Kubrick screws with us in subtle ways you don't even notice.

Online researchers figured out that Danny was watching a movie called Summer of 42' which is about a young man having an affair with an older woman.

Later we see both Jack and Danny encounter the witch hag in the bathroom which is an older woman. Think that's far fetched, look at the number on Danny's sleeve.

 

[Uncommon Valor]

Currently reading the book. It may be time to watch the movie again.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

I don't know man. Kubrick layered The Shining in so much subliminal stuff with colors, moving furniture, occult symbology, symmetry of shots, mirrors, doors, psychic premonitions, and then for shits and giggles he mixed in some cartoon stuff. I just don't know what it all means and maybe that was the joke Kubrick was playing on all of us. He's a gdamn master of cinema. When Halloran asks Danny if he's afraid of the Overlook, Kubrick made sure to shoot it with knives in the background pointed at Danny's head. Also notice how Halloran and Danny mirror each other with their hand positions. Kubrick was precise in every shot.

Want something else to blow your mind? In the modern adaptation of IT, the most recent one, we learn that Halloran saved some of the people in the fire. He had a premonition of some white supremicists blocking the doors and setting it on fire. Supposedly in the lore of it Halloran is one of the only adults in existence than can see IT in its true form and not go mad. That is, before Jack Torrance put an axe in his chest.

The number of details in this film is overwhelming. I won't even touch on them all by the time this thread ends they are so numerous. When Ullman tells Jack about the axe murder he says the girls are about 8 and 10. We just assume the twins are Grady's daughters he axe murdered but Ullman described them as 8 and 10, that's not twins. Also, Kubrick shot the twins mirrored from an original. Check this out.

In each pic, the tall twin is slightly smiling and the short twin is more serious looking and they are mirrored serious on left, serious on right, smiling on right, smiling on left. Just like they are also mirrored in their death scene, one face down and one face up in same position.

Here is another one. When Wendy and Danny are watching T.V., there are no power cords of any kind running to that T.V. bro. It should not be running. Kubrick screws with us in subtle ways you don't even notice.

Online researchers figured out that Danny was watching a movie called Summer of 42' which is about a young man having an affair with an older woman.

Later we see both Jack and Danny encounter the witch hag in the bathroom which is an older woman. Think that's far fetched, look at the number on Danny's sleeve.

This movie is a treasure-trove.

Fwiw, 42 is twice 1921.