SHERDOG MOVIE CLUB: Week 174 - The Shining

Discussion in 'Mayberry Lounge' started by europe1, Sep 4, 2019.

  1. europe1

    europe1 It´s a nice peninsula to Asia

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    NOTE to NON-MEMBERS: Interested in joining the SHERDOG MOVIE CLUB? Shoot me a PM for more info!

    Here's a quick list of all movies watched by the SMC. Or if you prefer, here's a more detailed examination.

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    Our Director
    Spookmaster 3000

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    Our Star
    White Mans Burden

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    Film Overview


    Premise: A family heads to an isolated hotel for the winter where a sinister presence influences the father into violence, while his psychic son sees horrific forebodings from both past and future.​

    Budget: $19 million

    Box Office: $44.4 million


    Trivia
    (Courtesy of IMDB)

    * Because Danny Lloyd was so young, and since it was his first acting job, Stanley Kubrick was highly protective of the child. During the shooting of the movie, Lloyd was under the impression that the film he was making was a drama, not a horror movie. In fact, when Wendy carries Danny away while shouting at Jack in the Colorado Lounge, she is actually carrying a life-size dummy, so Lloyd would not have to be in the scene. He only realized the truth several years later, when he was shown a heavily edited version of the film. He did not see the uncut version of the film until he was seventeen, eleven years after he had made it.

    * The idea for Danny Lloyd to move his finger when he was talking as Tony was his own. He did it spontaneously during his very first audition.

    * For the scene in which Jack breaks down the bathroom door, the props department built a door that could be easily broken. However, Jack Nicholson had worked as a volunteer fire marshal and tore it apart far too easily. The props department were then forced to build a stronger door.

    * To get Jack Nicholson in the right agitated mood, he was only fed cheese sandwiches for two weeks, which he hates.

    * According to Shelley Duvall, the infamous "Here's Johnny!" scene took three days to film and the use of sixty doors.

    * The throwing around of the tennis ball inside the Overlook Hotel was Jack Nicholson's idea. The script originally only specified that "Jack is not working".

    * Despite Stanley Kubrick's fierce demands on everyone, Jack Nicholson admitted to having a good working relationship with him. It was with Shelley Duvall that he was a completely different director. He allegedly picked on her more than anyone else, as seen in the documentaries Making 'The Shining' (1980) and Stanley Kubrick: A Life in Pictures (2001). He would really lose his temper with her, even going so far as to say that she was wasting the time of everyone on the set. She later reflected that he was probably pushing her to her limits to get the best out of her, and that she wouldn't trade the experience for anything, but it was not something she ever wished to repeat.


    Members: @europe1 @MusterX @Cubo de Sangre @FrontNakedChoke @Tufts @chickenluver @Scott Parker 27 @Yotsuya @jei @LHWBelt @moreorless87 @HARRISON_3 @Bullitt68 @HenryFlower @Zer @Rimbaud82
     
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  2. moreorless87

    moreorless87 Out To Lunch

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    I would argue the issue here was probably acting style, Kubrick I think clearly wanted the film to have a very larger than life style to its performances which obviously came as second nature to Jack but Duvall needed to be pushed much more to get that kind of performance out of her. I'd imagine that if he were working today Kurbick might get more criticism for pushing his performers hard(similar to the fuss about Exarchopoulos being pushed to breaking on Blue is the Warmest Colour a few years ago) but there is a difference between that and outright abuse as you can see with how protective he was of Danny Lloyd.

    Honestly I'v never had an issue with her performance either, I think the film is deliberately playing up their relationship as a classic abusive husband and downtrodden wife were any respect for the latter from the former has long since gone.
     
  3. Bullitt68

    Bullitt68 Senior Moderator Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    I am literally in my first class (all of the students are in small groups introducing themselves and their favorite movies) and on my first week of my first fall teaching workload, THIS is the week you screwheads decide to watch The Shining? How the hell am I supposed to find time to mine everything there is to mine in this mindfuck of a movie?

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    I promise, I'm going to try to make it in here, but I might have to watch this one from the sidelines. Unless @europe1 goes crazy in room 237, @moreorless87 talks about Native American stuff, and @MusterX finds Satan or some of his demons hanging out in the Overlook :D
     
  4. MusterX

    MusterX Titanium Belt

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    Before this is over, all of those things are likely to happen.
     
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  5. MusterX

    MusterX Titanium Belt

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    LMAO, uses the Jim Carrey deep fake gif. <45>

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  6. Tufts

    Tufts Green Belt

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    Where was your commentary on Barton? We miss your deep thoughts! Can't you just make the class watch the movie?

    Oh and congratulations on the job!
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  7. MusterX

    MusterX Titanium Belt

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    Welp, this is probably going to take more than one post. I think one of the first things that has to be tackled is whether or not what is happening is just a part of Jack Torrance's tortured mind or if something supernatural is actually happening. The bathroom hag is experienced by by both Danny and Jack.

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    This would seem to indicate that something supernatural is actually happening and its not just the deranged mind of Jack Torrance. Then again, we might assume that it is just Jack's deranged mind and Danny is picking up on it with his psychic powers. This is the type of shit that Kubrick tortures me with. In fact, this film has so much ambiguity in it, I don't know where to start. I guess lets start with some dark shit.

    Wendy sees a man in a bear costume going down on another man.



    At the beginning of the film we see Danny on a bear pillow.

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    I think this has to be an indication that Jack sexually abused Danny. I don't see any way around it, and when Wendy sees it, its kinda like saying she knew about it and did nothing, its part of her nightmare. The Shining is a dark film, a very dark film. I think more dark than most of us want to examine. It has pedophilia, axe murder, the paranormal, a witch/hag, and a winter-fresh taste of madness. What was it about Danny that Jack hated so much?

    We know the caretaker Delbert Grady or the bartender Lloyd told Jack he would set his boy straight, and in fact did. Even when Jack confronts Delbert about killing his family and says, "you were the caretaker here Delbert", Delbert responds by saying, "You are the caretaker sir, you've always been the caretaker."



    Jack sodomized Danny, broke his arm, and ultimately wanted to kill him, but why? Is it because he has descended into madness, is it because he in fact is a sort of reincarnation of Delbert, is it because he IS Delbert and this is his hell to relive his final act over and over? This is just one of the rabbit holes of this film. Then we get that neat little pic at the end to reinforce that Jack is and has always been the caretaker.

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    Jack gets pressured by Lloyd and Grady and Jack's true feelings spill out. He wants Wendy and Danny dead but the big question is why? Because he has had a psychotic break? The dude already was doing bad things to Danny before they even go to the Overlook.
     
  8. Tufts

    Tufts Green Belt

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    Jesus! That was intense. Now I'm supposed to sleep?!

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    I'll write my thoughts down tomorrow. If I jump into this now, I definitely won't get any rest. Good choice @FrontNakedChoke! It had been a long time since I saw it last.
     
  9. Tufts

    Tufts Green Belt

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    [​IMG]

    I'm gonna stop reading now.... that whole sleep thing, y'know!
     
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  10. Cubo de Sangre

    Cubo de Sangre President of the War Room

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    Wendy see some weird shit and a ghost lets Jack out of the storage locker. Danny also has bruises Wendy sees and he says the ghost lady did it. I'm going with things not being imaginary.

    I'm not convinced on the sexual abuse. But that bear bj scene was easily the most peculiar. It's gotta mean something.

    One could hypothesize Danny lied about old hag to cover for dad's predilection, and was the one to open the storage door. But then he wouldn't have been in the room with mommy chanting "redrum", and daddy would have killed him immediately upon being freed.
     
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  11. Cubo de Sangre

    Cubo de Sangre President of the War Room

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    I got the impression Kubrick was playing with the horror genre, kinda like Scream did. He was beating us over the head with all the foreshadowing and exposition, leading right down the path everyone in the audience knows it's going. However where Scream was more fun, this was more satirical. And of course creepy. :eek:
     
  12. moreorless87

    moreorless87 Out To Lunch

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    I mean in some ways I think the film clearly does respect Kings work in terms of using the setting he created to tell an atmospheric horror story but equally it does as you say feel like its commenting on this kind of horror writing and the genre overall.

    The most obvious shift I'd say is that the importance of the Hotel is in Jack's actions is deliberately downplayed and instead we get more of the impression its giving vent to his existing nature. I'd say you end up with a story that's more a window into domestic abuse, the horror story plays up the sense of isolation and fear to give the audience more of the kind of experience someone might have in an abusive relationship.

    Whilst it might not go down well in objectivist quarters I do think there is also clearly some comment on the legacy of colonialism, why else would the hotel's history be brought up? again though I think you see a bit of a deflection about from the hotel itself as the only personification of this, moreso the idea that US society has remained inherently violent.
     
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  13. MusterX

    MusterX Titanium Belt

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    Correct, that is the interesting bit of information, "The hotel giving vent to Jack's existing nature", because we know he abused Danny physically before he went to the hotel and I'm saying he abused him sexually as well but @Cubo de Sangre ain't on board. I didn't see any way around the bear imagery. Wendy was the one that saw it because as Danny's mother she felt guilty. She knew about it, or suspected it for sure.

    So we don't know exactly WTF is the relationship between Jack's homicidal behavior and the hotel is.

    In regards to colonialism and the relationship between Jack Torrance and the hotel, we do know that Mr. Ullman tells Jack that shit is built on an Indian burial ground. As if that isn't enough reason for a haunting but it seems like its way more than just the premise for a haunting.

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    At one point Shelly Duvall looks like she is in pigtails like a native American woman.

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    Jack also uses the line, "white man's burden" when he's talking to Lloyd the bartender. Even the end scene pic of Jack as the caretaker has an interesting date of July 4th, American independence day. It seems like a bad day in terms of American Indian history.

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  14. chickenluver

    chickenluver Bookmobile Driver

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    So how come the Hotel manager tells Jack about the previous caretaker who went crazy and murdered his family, calling him Charles Grady at that time, then when Jack meets the ghost of the caretaker he calls himself Delbert Grady? Explain yourself Mr. Kubrick.

    The door opening and the bruises on Danny's arm are the only times the ghost physically affect anything right?

    The photograph at the end is the greatest mystery for me. Was Jack in the photo before they ever went there, or did he only appear in it after dying?
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2019
  15. Cubo de Sangre

    Cubo de Sangre President of the War Room

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    Agreed that Jack was already one foot on the edge. Seemed like he wanted to smack Wendy when they were on the drive up.

    If there's some message about colonialism it falls flat. There seems to be some elements, but nothing I'd call coherent.


    It is the best explanation, but where's anything to corroborate (besides Danny having a bear)? What has Kubrick said?


    I took all that to mean that the same spirit inhabiting Jack had inhabited Grady. So the Grady ghost was just him, absent whatever sort of possession took place, and he recognized the "caretaker" was now in Jack. The pic at the end was just a cinematic way of driving that point home, and possibly a stab at the genre for putting in some unexplained twist at the end that has people leaving the theater with sort of a "mind blown" feeling.
     
  16. moreorless87

    moreorless87 Out To Lunch

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    I think The Shining has an element of I Am The Walrus to it, an artist aware that people were reading hidden meaning nto their work decides to deliberately throw puzzles at them. Not that the film can't have some reading beyond its basic plot but I don't think its really intended to communicate some exact hidden message, more several themes such as those already mentioned.

    Honestly I think the whole movement of looking for very exact logical hidden messages and plots in such films comes from the same kind of mind-set that drives conspiracy theories so its no surprised to fin The Shining is linked into several of these. As a form of film criticism though I think its just a more advanced version of looking for plotholes that seems to appeal to people who don't want to discuss cinema in terms of either drama or social issues, either due to their politics or some feeling its not masculine enough.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2019
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  17. FrontNakedChoke

    FrontNakedChoke ____________________ Yellow Card

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    @FrontNakedBathtubChoke checking in.
    This has been my favorite movie for a long time.
    It's just always stuck with me since I was a kid.

    I was looking to ill- I mean legally stream this movie online, when I remembered that I have a physical copy on this ancient vessel called a DVD.

    The opening screen and music(first song) are creepy enough
    1redrum.png

    I was trying to think about some of the things that make this movie so creepy.
    I think the use of music and background sounds are highly effective.

    The sense of confusion and mystery makes it all the more horrifying to me.
    Eerie stuff folks, let's dive in!
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    This story feels like an inevitable spiral out of control from the beginning.
    The opening scene is both beautiful and haunting. The mountains and the shots are gorgeous but the background music is grim, with ritualistic animal screams/ noises over top.

    Roadrunner = The Shining for me now
    meep meep

    This movie does have a very hypnotic feel to it.

    Two things I noticed Jack say:
    -on the problem of isolation: I want it (to write his book)
    -Ullman: Some people can be put off staying at a place where something like that actually happened
    Jack: You can rest assured that's not gonna happen with me

    Possibly two signs of Jack's malevolence from the start.
    (always being at the overlook)
    The content of his "novel" supports this type of theory as well.

    I always thought he did look extremely evil during the drive up to the overlook.
    Either that or just really annoyed with his family.

    Hallorann is one of if not my favorite character in the movie.

    Jack is always so condescending to Wendy.

    I think the first maze scene might be even creepier than the last..

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    Danny rolling around the hotel on his big wheel is still terrifying to me.
    And the background music is amazing.

    Hallorann said the Overlook shines like people shine.
    I think it's possible that the Overlook shines through Jack Torrence.

    Jack Nicholson is amazing in this movie.
    If he wasn't crazy before, he sure as f*** is now

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    Could all this madness boil down to the destruction of Jack's hairline?
    (I believe it could)

    I forgot that the two little girls were British

    <28>

    This scene is still pretty damn gruesome..
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    Danny sure has seen a lot for such a young man.

    <30>

    I've been trying to ignore the molestation theory, but Jack is so creepy with Danny during the scene when he goes to get his firetruck.. That lens certainly puts an even darker mood over the film.
    5uhhh...PNG It does seem weird that Danny would take time off school after a broken arm.
    I think in the book they explain that they didn't want anyone asking questions.
    Can't remember for sure.

    He does plan to kill them however. Kind of explains his creepy behavior.
    And it never said anything about the twin girls getting being molested, just killed.

    Rolling a ball to a child to lure them into room 237. Rather unsettling.

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    Jack having a horrible nightmare while Danny is in room 237.
    There are other theories that suggest Danny is actually the one causing Jack to go insane.

    'I'd give my god damn soul just for a glass of beer'
    *ghost bartender appears*

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    The atmosphere is this movie is one of a kind.

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    A lot of beautiful colors and symmetry in this film.

    I have an alternate version in my head where Dick Hallorann goes up and saves the day.

    Grady is one sinister sum' bitch
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    The Shining is longer than I remembered.
    Now I have to go to bed after this.. @Tufts style
    I can sleep well knowing I got this movie through the toughest tournament in non-sports.

    I always got the sense that Hallorann knew that he was walking into, and yet he went anyway.
    Hallorann conveys a graet deal of care towards Danny. Heart warming relationship.

    The music in the background of the 'all work and no play scene' is incredibly terrifying.
    (I actually do like his work. It satisfies me too see that written so many different ways)
    <17>

    Who really let Jack out of the freezer?

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    So much can be said about The Shining. So many different theories. The mystery adds to the appeal for me. I've never cared to have it entirely figured out, per say.

    At the end of the day, to me it's a classic movie with beatiful shots & transitions, a chilling atmosphere, and crazy background music. This solidified what a good horror / thriller should be for me.

    An all time great.
    Must have been nominated by a great poster.
    Sorry it wasn't some obscure film you haven't seen before.

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    I look forward to reading the rest of your thoughts
    @FrontNakedCorrection signing off


     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2019
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  18. Cubo de Sangre

    Cubo de Sangre President of the War Room

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    Congrats on getting it enshrined here.
     
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  19. Cubo de Sangre

    Cubo de Sangre President of the War Room

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    The score brought the mood. Silent MVP.


    Both?


    In fairness, Jack had already been consistently creepy at that point.


    Then he got bourbon. Sounds like no deal. ?1?


    Ghosts or the kid. All evidence points to ghosts. :eek:
     
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  20. moreorless87

    moreorless87 Out To Lunch

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