SHERDOG MOVIE CLUB: Week 14 Discussion - Barry Lyndon

Why does Barry show mercy? Is it a point of honor? Did he honestly expect Bully to give up?

Bully had the perfect out. He was scared shitless and if he were anything but true of intention, he'd have run as soon as they'd give him a chance. It reminded me of when the uncles were trying to convince Barry not to go through with the first dueling pistols and take 20 gold pieces and party out in Dublin.

The balls Bully had to have to face death, then ask for a second helping. It wasn't for sure he'd hit Barry, all indications to the contrary. It might have gone off in his hand again. If he didn't hit, he was surely dead.

Re-upping on the pistol duel was what turned Bully into a bigger person than Barry, and he wasn't about owning people but avenging people. And saving his mom from a monster/predator, like any kid would do. He was loyal. Definitely think he isn't as shallow as a stunted brat or something like that.

I think he showed mercy because Bullingdon reminded him of himself at that age. They were both full of righteousness (as naive youth often are) they were both furious at an older man who was stealing their love interest away from them.

There were three duels in the movie. The last two were obviously very similar, the first one was shot in a totally different manner... why? I think the contrast was to further emphasize the similarity between Barry's situation and Bully's

Yeah he had affection for her. He wanted to be with her at all times. Did she feel the same? Did Lord Bulldog act the way his mother wanted him to act?

"From the way I love this child, My Lord. You would have know I would have loved his elder brother. Had he proved worthy of any mothers affection".

Doesn't sound like she likes his obsessive affection. Doesn't sound like she approves of him and his behavior at all. She won't be finding happiness with such a man. Bullingdon has affection for her, but he does not understand how to heal her or make her happy. All he says is more an reflection of himself than it is of her. When he speaks about Barry's "brute manners and low-breed Irish heritage", she loaths him for it.

Did she say that before or after he was exiled?

It could be as simple as "Bully reminds her of his father" Both Bully and his father argued in a very straight-forward manner... We can only assume that Bully's intelligence came from his father, as his mother barely spoke. He was wise to Barry right from the start, that could be a sign of the Countess being naive (unlike Bully or his father) or it could just be a sign of her be fooled by Barry's charm and looks... mostly looks.

Intresting that it's the cousin that is the bawdy one in the relationship. Barry is very shy and sensetive.

Shy and sensitive like Lord Bullingdon was (before the duel) Righteous as well ;)

It is interesting that we see none of this in the film. In fact, we see the exact contrary. Barry's action's are exemplarary during his Pressian days. He rescues his superior officer from the burning fire.

There is a lot of contrast to what is shown and told in Barry Lyndon.

Good point. What's up with that?
 
If you're going to converse with Bullitt, prepare to break plenty of furniture in rage. We're talking about a guy that thinks Steven Seagal is cooler than Clint Eastwood. What you presently know about him is only the tip of the iceberg concerning his cinematic hearsay. He is, in a word, a "wrong-thinker".

Lol! Bullitt definitely has his own tastes, that's for sure, but IDK, I find most of the time I can at least understand where he's coming from. I didn't like Schindler's List or Saving Private Ryan that much either. When you think about a guy that loves Heat and Collateral for the reasons he loves them... it makes sense that he doesn't like Spielberg. Not liking Mad Max: Fury Road isn't something I can find acceptable, but it wasn't unexpected. He does have his moments - I find they're at least in character though.
 
If you're going to converse with Bullitt, prepare to break plenty of furniture in rage. We're talking about a guy that thinks Steven Seagal is cooler than Clint Eastwood. What you presently know about him is only the tip of the iceberg concerning his cinematic hearsay. He is, in a word, a "wrong-thinker".

I thank you for forewarning me before I go off the deep end!


You just like them because they inevitable leads to someone talking about hot certain actresses are!:D

Hey, wasn't it YOU who started that?

Or maybe it's my fault for posting Cat Ballou pics.
 
I enjoy his family-friendly style, the heart, the warmth, the happy endings.
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Jurassic Park >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Requiem for a Dream

Well... lol, IDK if I would compare them but I'll take Requiem all day.


Bullitt might not like Jurassic Park but he also definitely doesn't enjoy OR appreciate stuff like Requiem for a Dream, much to my chagrin. He isn't a fan of any of the movies I picked, lol.
 
Well... lol, IDK if I would compare them but I'll take Requiem all day.

Bullitt might not like Jurassic Park but he also definitely doesn't enjoy OR appreciate stuff like Requiem for a Dream, much to my chagrin. He isn't a fan of any of the movies I picked, lol.

Here's how I look at it most of the time:

Real life is depressing enough. I don't want my movies to depress me too.

If I could sum up my general attitude toward cinema, that is it. Take me for a fun ride . . . warm my heart . . . inspire me . . . make me feel a little bit better about things than I did going in.

Or if not that, then really engage me on an intellectual level. I mean, something like Primer isn't heartwarming, but it really gets into your head and makes you think some interesting thoughts. Same for a movie like 2001.

A movie like Requiem for a Dream, however, makes me want to blow my brains out. I don't feel better after watching it, I feel worse. That's not why I fell in love with movies in the first place.
 
Here's how I look at it most of the time:

Real life is depressing enough. I don't want my movies to depress me too.

If I could sum up my general attitude toward cinema, that is it. Take me for a fun ride . . . warm my heart . . . inspire me . . . make me feel a little bit better about things than I did going in.

Or if not that, then really engage me on an intellectual level. I mean, something like Primer isn't heartwarming, but it really gets into your head and makes you think some interesting thoughts. Same for a movie like 2001.

A movie like Requiem for a Dream, however, makes me want to blow my brains out. I don't feel better after watching it, I feel worse. That's not why I fell in love with movies in the first place.

You'll very much agree with Bullitt on a lot then. He has a similar view, but wants to be elevated, not made to feel good. I like movies that explore emotional or philosophical territory that I'm familiar with, so for most of my life that's been dark stuff, lol. I do like inspiring stuff and we have a lot of movies we like in common and I'm a major 'positivity-freak', in my own way, but I can't resist the stuff that hits home the hardest.
 
You'll very much agree with Bullitt on a lot then. He has a similar view, but wants to be elevated, not made to feel good. I like movies that explore emotional or philosophical territory that I'm familiar with, so for most of my life that's been dark stuff, lol. I do like inspiring stuff and we have a lot of movies we like in common and I'm a major 'positivity-freak', in my own way, but I can't resist the stuff that hits home the hardest.

That's fair and I have my own stuff like that.

A lot of movies I appreciate connect in some way to my religious journey or some other philosophical point of my existence.

And stay positive, man. I have to remind myself every day to do that. It can be hard sometimes.
 
That's fair and I have my own stuff like that.

A lot of movies I appreciate connect in some way to my religious journey or some other philosophical point of my existence.

And stay positive, man. I have to remind myself every day to do that. It can be hard sometimes.

Oh, I stay positive, lol, don't worry about that. I just have to focus that energy in the right direction. Do you know Eric Thomas? ET The Hip-Hop Preacher? I love stuff like that, I listen to motivational stuff all the time, listen to mostly uplifting music, etc -- my whole life is centered around staying positive, that's who I am now, but who I grew up as was totally different.

 
I think there is a key scene missing.

After the display's of Barry's infidelities, there is the scene where they are alone together while she's taking a bath. He says, earnestly, "I am sorry". She takes his hand, and they kiss. His disrespect of her ceases after that.

There was a moment, where they truly loved each other.
I think that's a moment when Lady Lyndon truly loved Barry. The scene of their first meeting was just as touching, but it was similarly one-sided.

Maybe his disrespect stops, but I think this line from the narrator holds true: "Lady Lyndon was soon destined to occupy a place in Barry's life, not very much more important than the elegant carpets and pictures which would form the pleasant background of his existence." I don't she was ever anymore to him than a means to acquire wealth and title.
What does she tell him? "From the way I love this child, My Lord. You would have know I would have loved his elder brother. Had he proved worthy of any mothers affection".
I think that's an unjustifiable thing for her to say to him. As far as we can see the only thing Bullingdon has done wrong in her eyes is to be disrespectful to Barry.
And then notice how she begins to cry when Lord Bulldog absolutely trashes Barry.
I think she's crying because she knows what he says is true.
Nah. I disagree. Notice her hesitation. It's the letter that disows Barry, sealing his perpetual department form her life. That a thousand-yards stare ala Full Metal Jacket that she's giving.
Upon great reflection I'll agree with you here. I do consider it to be further evidence of how fooled she was by Barry's charms and the amount of mental control he had over her.

I don't agree that Bullingdon had no regard for her emotions. He finally returns because he hears that she had become so miserable that she had tried to kill herself.
We never see this. Didn't he live in France or something? I very much doubt he lived the life of a commoner. He was cozying at some friends flat.
It never specified where he was, but he seemed to have a house to himself, and it showed Philip Stone's character taking a carriage there so it can't have been too far.
this a rotating position/status that people come in and out of and is ultimately meaningless.
That could be what this epilogue is getting at: It was in the reign of George III that the aforesaid personages lived and quarreled; good or bad, handsome or ugly, rich or poor, they are all equal now.
I was on Team Bullingdon.
When I first watched this I was on Team Barry and hated Bullingdon. After the passing of years and a few more viewings I've definitely crossed over to the other side.
The war story... I had the impression that it was another tall tale told by Barry. It reminded me of him pretending to be Captain Fake-man, and all the tall tales and deception he told to get into the good graces of Captain Potzdorf, who in turn got him in touch with a true con man, Chevalier du Balibari.

Barry is a con man, and I think he cried because he realized how his BS caught up with him, as the one thing his dying child was most proud of him for (cutting off 19 heads?) was a fabrication of his, like everything else, and the kid loved it because he was just like him in a way, and would die because of that tenacious nature and horrible luck. Whereas Barry flourished because of that and his incredible luck.
Good post. The story was clearly a lie or exaggeration, but I never made that connection as to why he cries while telling it.
There is a lot of contrast to what is shown and told in Barry Lyndon.
I think this may be somewhat of a nod to the source material. The novel is filled with contrast between Barry's presentation of his life and the objective truth behind his words.
Did she say that before or after he was exiled?
He wasn't exiled so much as he went into self-exile.

"And as I cannot personally chastise this low-bred ruffian, and as I cannot bear to witness any more his treatment of you and loathe his horrible society as if it were the plague! I have decided to leave my home and never return, at least during his detested life or during my own."
Jurassic Park >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Requiem for a Dream
I'm not really an Aronofsky guy.
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I could go on and on about the music in the film and post examples but I won't. I'll just say that the music is very close to my heart. It's one of the few film soundtracks that I've listened to multiple times outside of viewing the film, but the real reason it's so special to me is because it sparked my interest in Western Classical and Baroque music. Handel's Sarabande from the Suite in D Minor, the main theme of the film, and the second movement of Schubert's Piano Trio in E-Flat, played when Lady Lyndon is first seen, and again during the final scene. I have trouble expressing just how profound this music is to me. I first heard them because of this movie.

I've read that Kubrick studied Once Upon A Time in America for inspiration in how to synchronise music with visuals for this film.

Did she say that before or after he was exiled?

She said that when Lord Bulldog walked in on her concert. The scene where Barry manhandles him afterwards.

It could be as simple as "Bully reminds her of his father" Both Bully and his father argued in a very straight-forward manner... We can only assume that Bully's intelligence came from his father, as his mother barely spoke.
Shy and sensitive like Lord Bullingdon was (before the duel) Righteous as well ;)

There might be something to the fact that both Barry and Bullingdon are spurred into anger by the event of another older man "claiming" a women that they are both obsessed over, and think should belong to them. And in both instances, the woman actually seems to be preferring the claimant.




I think she's crying because she knows what he says is true.

Man Barry Lyndon is such a difficult film to converse about. Everyone hides motives and emotions under all that stiff upper-lip attitude of theirs. Many diffrent interpretations may be correct.

Upon great reflection I'll agree with you here. I do consider it to be further evidence of how fooled she was by Barry's charms and the amount of mental control he had over her.

Where is the line between fooled by one's charm and genuine love drawn?


Good point. What's up with that?

Maybe his disrespect stops, but I think this line from the narrator holds true: "Lady Lyndon was soon destined to occupy a place in Barry's life, not very much more important than the elegant carpets and pictures which would form the pleasant background of his existence." I don't she was ever anymore to him than a means to acquire wealth and title.

I think this may be somewhat of a nod to the source material. The novel is filled with contrast between Barry's presentation of his life and the objective truth behind his words.


So about the narrator...

I was actually authoring a post while we were still on the first page about the narrator, but I eventually dismissed it since I couldn't conceptualize what I wanted to say, couldn't get the tone and the point right.

But I do think that there is something deeply suspicious... insidious even, about the narrator. Often his comments seem like half-truths, gross simplifications, or just uncontextualized.


*He tells us that Barry became "very far advanced in the science of every kind of misconduct" when he was in the Preussian army. Yet his actions are the excact opposite. And even worse! When Barry rescues the Colonel the officers still take the oppertunity for repremending him when he gets his reward! How callous! Yet he still responds to their insults with humility (though that may be just a lie for well-appearance).

*The narrator comments about him and the German girl are simplistic, he dismisses the sensetivity they shared with tawdy comments. He misses the tenderness of their encounter completely. It is as if he did not notice it at all!

*The narrator says that Barry has Lady Lyndon confined to the home, and actively makes sure to keep her away from social occasions. Yet, later, (after Barry has offered his apologies to his wife), we see her leading an musical group before a well-assembled crowd. Obviously she must have some sort of social life if she can be leading a social occasions like that.

*The narrator says that Lady Lyndon spent her days in melancholy with Barry. Yet, she seems more sad in the ending when she was with Lord Bulldog than she was with Barry. Nor does the narrator explain or even mention Barry's apology towards Lady Lyndon. It's clearly in contrast to what he said. So why no comment? He could even have said that Barry lied and was just fooling the poor girl but we get nothing of that either.

*He completely misses the trauma about Barry Lyndon's fathers death. He descirbes it cooly. Never do we hear what Barry felt having lost his father like that, how it affected him as a person. And considering Barry's extreme involvement in his own son, it must have infected him greatly.

*Also, if Barry is such an oppertunistic rouge as the narrator and many other claims him to be, then why did he not agree to spy on Chevailer? If he was an ruthless oppertunists, then that would have been the PERFECT oppertunity for an oppertunist to improve his lot in life. Instead he does the excact opposite, and helps the man, forming even a father-son bond with him.


 
* On a similar note, what a strange way it was that armies used to fight each other. Let's all line up and consciously walk into gunfire. I have to at least give them this, that takes balls. No wonder Mel Gibson and his crew were so successful in The Patriot, though.

All battles during that time was basically a game of "breaking the opponents moral before they break ours". All that music, identical costuming, drilling, everyone doing everything as one following the lieutenants orders, was basically a way of strengthening moral. People are pack animals. If everyone around us acts and looks one way, we are very much inclined to do the same, even in moments of extreme danger. It was even considered manly to stay in line, people who broke and ran were considered feminine. Dudes will do a lot to not have their manhood questioned. Less standardized armies like militias often had moral problems in such battles and broke early.
 
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I've read that Kubrick studied Once Upon A Time in America for inspiration in how to synchronise music with visuals for this film.

I also read that Kubrick said "Once Upon a Time in The West" influenced his making of this film, or him in general, but I didn't know the specifics.

She said that when Lord Bulldog walked in on her concert. The scene where Barry manhandles him afterwards.

Ok, so anger might have clouded her judgement during that scene. Often when people are furious they say things they don't mean.


There might be something to the fact that both Barry and Bullingdon are spurred into anger by the event of another older man "claiming" a women that they are both obsessed over, and think should belong to them. And in both instances, the woman actually seems to be preferring the claimant.

Another similarity between the two main duels is, Quinn gave Barry several chances to back down, but he was too stubborn, angry, and immature to realise the mistake he was making.

Barry also gave Bully several chances to back down, but he refused them all because he was too stubborn, angry, and immature to realise the mistake he was making. He got lucky and Barry let him win, but then again, Barry only won because Quinn let him win as well.


Man Barry Lyndon is such a difficult film to converse about. Everyone hides motives and emotions under all that stiff upper-lip attitude of theirs. Many diffrent interpretations may be correct.

This is true, especially in the case of the Countess, she only had 18 lines in the movie or something like that... Was that in the OP? I read it somewhere, but can't remember where.

The characters all change throughout the movie too. Young Barry is a good, but confused, angry, immature man, middle-age Barry is a total asshole, elder Barry is a broken, remorseful, sad alcoholic. The changes happen slowly, which makes their intentions that much harder to gauge, at times.

Where is the line between fooled by one's charm and genuine love drawn?

Much like the candles with three wicks, the line is wide and blurry. I suspect she was probably more confused about her situation than we are.

What was the difference between Bully's love for his mom and Barrys love for her? The difference is only physical... People often confuse love and lust because sex is such a personal thing that you feel a connection to the person, even if you don't love them... Perhaps that's why it's hard to reconcile the way Barry and the German looked at each other with how the narrator spoke of them. What they said and did (in parting ways) wasn't what they really wanted, it was what they had to do, she was married.

Another interesting part was the orgy... or so called orgy scene. Barry looked bored... he made up with his wife after that. He grew up, and got over his obsession with banging every hot chick he saw. He got over his weird sexual aversions through the orgy, and came to appreciate real love.

Everyone's talking about his dad, which I'll get to later, but his cousin was the one really messed him up. It's like having sex in public, it's a form of taboo sex, it's risky. It's the kind of thing that turns one into a pervert. He only slept with married women, or his relatives, then he went to orgies. Sex was purely physical for him. His first relationship was his cousin, the lines between love and lust would surely be blurred in that type of situation, because he loved his cousin long before there were any sexual feelings. His first time was with someone he loved, but not someone he was in love with in that type of way. He fell for her, after she seduced him and stole his heart. Then she left him, and turned his family against him. She destroyed Barry. When Barry left his village (as a naive young boy) he was a mess.

So about the narrator...

I was actually authoring a post while we were still on the first page about the narrator, but I eventually dismissed it since I couldn't conceptualize what I wanted to say, couldn't get the tone and the point right.

But I do think that there is something deeply suspicious... insidious even, about the narrator. Often his comments seem like half-truths, gross simplifications, or just uncontextualized.


*He tells us that Barry became "very far advanced in the science of every kind of misconduct" when he was in the Preussian army. Yet his actions are the excact opposite. And even worse! When Barry rescues the Colonel the officers still take the oppertunity for repremending him when he gets his reward! How callous! Yet he still responds to their insults with humility (though that may be just a lie for well-appearance).​


I think that was more a case of the narrator wanting to explain what happened without Kubrick having to make another war movie, which he wasn't trying to do.

Barry was raised well. In the first scene with Barry and Nora he was tormented, his dick was screaming "Do it" but he was trying so hard to resist because he was a well-adjusted, polite, respectful boy, despite not having a father. The Narrator made a point of emphasizing that Barrys mom turned down all the bachelors who sought her hand, she devoted herself to Barry. Barry's father not being around didn't seem to have a big effect on him, he had his cousins and uncles nearby too, and he was raised in a small village, where everyone is basically extended family.

Quinn was an outsider, much like Barry was to Bully.

Barry was corrupted by love, as all people are. We're born pure, if we have good childhoods then the first thing that really corrupt us is lust. We'll lie, cheat, change who we are, dress in ways we think are dumb, we become corrupt through our efforts to get laid. Then we become corrupted by our careers (like Barry did in the army) then we become corrupted by the aristocrats and our leaders. Still today, these seem to be the main factors that corrupt people. Kids are all pure, no elderly people are pure and innocent, we all become corrupted as we age... This was one of the more subtle themes in the movie.

You could say it's a story of aging, of growing up and growing old. Of hopes and dreams, that eventually turn into nightmares... it's a story about humanity and society.

The narrator comments about him and the German girl are simplistic, he dismisses the sensetivity they shared with tawdy comments. He misses the tenderness of their encounter completely. It is as if he did not notice it at all!

Perhaps your mistaking their tenderness for love, when it was really an illustration of Barry's sexual immaturity and inexperience. There was sex scene between Barry and the Countess that was filmed but left out of the movie. I wonder if it was passionate or more angry and physical?

It's kind of like the difference between making love and fucking. You can fuck angrily and violently, or powerfully. Making love involves tenderness. Was Barry tender because he learned from Nora, or was he tender because he loved her? It seems the former is more likely.

Maybe Barry fell in love with the Countess (after the apology) (if he did, I'm still not sure, I might need to re-watch) because she made love to him with passion, unlike the people in the orgies.. Did you notice how Barry looked bored at the orgy?

*The narrator says that Barry has Lady Lyndon confined to the home, and actively makes sure to keep her away from social occasions. Yet, later, (after Barry has offered his apologies to his wife), we see her leading an musical group before a well-assembled crowd. Obviously she must have some sort of social life if she can be leading a social occasions like that.

Barry did confine her to home, with Bully. Then he changed after the apology and treated her as a human again. Assumedly she was given her freedom again after that. You're the one that's convinced they're in love, no one who really loves someone locks them up at home all day, then goes out to orgies.

I think my above theory about the orgies boring Barry might explain it.

*The narrator says that Lady Lyndon spent her days in melancholy with Barry. Yet, she seems more sad in the ending when she was with Lord Bulldog than she was with Barry. Nor does the narrator explain or even mention Barry's apology towards Lady Lyndon. It's clearly in contrast to what he said. So why no comment? He could even have said that Barry lied and was just fooling the poor girl but we get nothing of that either.

There was no need for the narrator to say she was unhappy with Bully, you could see it on her face that she missed Barry. Sex was the only honest and real thing in her life. Maybe she missed that, more than she missed Barry?

*He completely misses the trauma about Barry Lyndon's fathers death. He descirbes it cooly. Never do we hear what Barry felt having lost his father like that, how it affected him as a person. And considering Barry's extreme involvement in his own son, it must have infected him greatly.

Covered that earlier in the post. I'm not convinced that his Fathers death traumatized him. Perhaps he showered his son with affection because that's what his mom did to him? Perhaps his son reminded him of himself and he was just selfish?

I know people who have great parents and are extremely involved in their children... Just because he loved his son greatly doesn't mean it was because of his dad.

*Also, if Barry is such an oppertunistic rouge as the narrator and many other claims him to be, then why did he not agree to spy on Chevailer? If he was an ruthless oppertunists, then that would have been the PERFECT oppertunity for an oppertunist to improve his lot in life. Instead he does the excact opposite, and helps the man, forming even a father-son bond with him.

He saw how easy the Chevalier's life was. If the Chevalier was killed or arrested then he goes back to the army, he didn't want that. The army didn't reward him for saving his Corporal, not really.

Perhaps that's why they mentioned that the army made Barry a crook. That was how they explained his affection towards the Chevalier, he saw him as a master scammer, and he wanted that easy life... That's why he married the countess the narrator said... yet his affection, the lust was real. Things are never simple, Barry didn't do things for one reason alone. Everything tied together, Barry was a victim of society and the times. He wasn't born evil, he wasn't raised bad, he was a good, honourable, if confused man when he left the village. Society corrupted him.
 
On the subject of Kubrick's "coldness" I would say that it is his craftsmanship that is very "detatched" and "objective", as Bullittdon worded it. However, the stories he tell can be immensly humanistic in the characters deepts and the emotional situations they find themselves in.

Objective is the way I would describe most of his stuff. Dr. Strangelove, A Clockwork Orange, Barry Lyndon, and Full Metal Jacket all have an objectivity to them such that I don't sense Kubrick hovering in the background telling me which way I should lean or what conclusions I should draw.

Detached is the way I would describe Killer's Kiss and The Killing (which are the purest instances in the Kubrick canon of true storytelling, where Kubrick feels a step removed as if he's looking at the plot and the characters in it like pieces on a chessboard) and 2001 (often leveled at this film as a complaint or as a flaw, which I've always found so profoundly silly as it proves the entire point of the film was missed).

The hard cases are Paths of Glory, Spartacus, Lolita, and Eyes Wide Shut. Neither objective nor detached seem apt for any of them. Paths of Glory feels like an indictment (the mark of its difference from Full Metal Jacket); Spartacus and Lolita are way too heartfelt to justify either word; and Eyes Wide Shut, while I wouldn't call it heartfelt, nevertheless strikes me as a film Kubrick had a lot of stake in, that he cared about and the outcome of which for those characters he was honestly and deeply invested in, and in a way that is wholly unique in the entire Kubrick canon.

Holy shit! You're a mad man!

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It could be the way we're using the word "cold." I am using it quite literally as the opposite of "warm." That is, there is relatively little warmth to his movies. Going back to Spielberg, the themes, narrative turns and style employed in films like ET or Jurassic Park are full of warmth. The Shining, 2001 and Barry Lyndon are not, at least not the way I see it.

Certainly the warmest of those films is Barry Lyndon, such as in scenes with Barry and Lieschen near the beginning of the movie or the happy moments that Barry spends with his son in the second half. But as a whole, I wouldn't call it a warm film, no.

Based on this, plus what you said about Spielberg, I imagine you'll really enjoy Spartacus. Unless you've already seen it, in which case I'd be curious to get your reaction. You mention that Barry Lyndon is the warmest of the Kubrick films under discussion, but still not really a warm film; Spartacus, in my estimation, is the one Kubrick film that I think could be unequivocally considered a warm film (I say "unequivocally" because the subject matter of Lolita would complicate a straightforward description of it as a warm film, but it is a warm film).

I know that I'm not alone in feeling like Nolan is a good technical filmmaker but that he tends to fall flat when dealing with the emotional elements. I'd be curious to hear more about how his films have engaged you emotionally.

Like I said, I don't want to switch gears completely and just start talking about Nolan. However, if you really want to have a Nolan conversation, go over to the SMD and tell me some spots where the emotional elements in Nolan's films are "flat" and I'll tell you why you're wrong ;)

If you're going to converse with Bullitt, prepare to break plenty of furniture in rage. We're talking about a guy that thinks Steven Seagal is cooler than Clint Eastwood. What you presently know about him is only the tip of the iceberg concerning his cinematic hearsay. He is, in a word, a "wrong-thinker".

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He isn't a fan of any of the movies I picked, lol.

What were the movies you picked?

Real life is depressing enough. I don't want my movies to depress me too.

As a general rule, this is how I approach things, too. Then again, on a list of the greatest movies ever, Citizen Kane, Raging Bull, and Barry Lyndon would be near the top and all three are rise-and-fall stories where the falls are very rough.

I've read that Kubrick studied Once Upon A Time in America for inspiration in how to synchronise music with visuals for this film.

*Once Upon a Time in the West.



And it's interesting that what Kubrick was the most impressed by was the precision of Leone's timing. 2001 was a music-in-film game-changer, but Kubrick's individual skill with music improved between the mid-1960s when he was filming 2001 before he saw Once Upon a Time in the West, and the 1970s when he made A Clockwork Orange and Barry Lyndon after he saw Once Upon a Time in the West. The latter two films are scored with extreme precision, Barry Lyndon especially. That scene where Barry kisses Lady Lyndon, everything in it from the steps O'Neal takes to the general progression of the scene is right in-step with the progression of the music.

Another similarity between the two main duels is, Quinn gave Barry several chances to back down, but he was too stubborn, angry, and immature to realise the mistake he was making.

Barry also gave Bully several chances to back down, but he refused them all because he was too stubborn, angry, and immature to realise the mistake he was making. He got lucky and Barry let him win, but then again, Barry only won because Quinn let him win as well.

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How the hell had I not seen this before? This is why you always hear people - and I myself have said it countless times to other people - saying you have to watch Kubrick movies more than once. The man's genius knows no fucking bounds.
 
i don't find Nolan emotionally flat at all. If anything, he's HIGHLY emotional. TDKR and Interstellar are both films driven by emotion. Same with The Prestige.
 
Ok, at long last, a day after one week after the discussion began, I can finally sit down for three hours to go through this one. Life keeps getting in the way of my Lyndoning. I'm taking a trip to the south next week so I may not be around much for the discussion of what will be my flick. I'll start strong with it, though, as I'm sure I can have something written up before it all goes down. Anyways - Barry Lyndon! It's been over ten years since I went through this one, and with how deep this one was, I know I'll get more or at least different stuff out of it compared to last time. I do love this Movie Club.

I don't think I'm going to want to do a PBP stream of consciousness like the others, mostly because a three hour breakdown would be exhausting to read. Sure I have tons of questions, as I always do, but I'll see how this review goes. I may just do an overall breakdown instead. You guys have had a great discussion already and a few of my thoughts were echoed perfectly in the first two pages of this discussion from the earlier thread and from attempted summaries from posters like Beardo (hating these noblemen and then becoming just like them much do his dismay, for instance). Above all things, this film is deep. Like, crazy emotionally deep. I can't help but repeat the idea someone mentioned before, that beneath the calm and "too cool for school" demeanor this film tries to portray, it's got so much heart to it.

A quick note: for some reason, in O'Neal's performance, I hear a whole lot of Christopher Lambert (or a lot of O'Neal in Lambert's performances, chronologically speaking).

Back to the subject of love, the first 25 minutes of the film are all about Barry's love of his cousin turned to heartbreak. He loved her so hard that he killed a guy for her (or so he thought), even thought he knew he wouldn't be able to have her after the duel. There was no way Barry knew he'd be getting out of that one unscathed, and that was his sacrifice for her. As I was watching this film, I couldn't help keep thinking of a line from Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind - "Why do I fall in love with every woman I see who shows me the least bit of attention?" Barry has multiple women throughout this film, as one would expect in a film about a person, but something almost comical comes forth from their attraction to him. I don't know why it struck me as funny, but when he got into Holland and that woman helped him and seemingly fell for him, it made me laugh more than anything. It was such a minor scene, something that almost doesn't need to be noted, but it stuck out to me.

Don't get me started on his romance with Lady Lyndon, that was some great directing to say the least. I'd like to point out that I haven't read The Luck of Barry Lyndon, so I can't point to its authenticity from novel to film, but I'm sure it was spot on. "Barry and Chevalier go from town to town ripping people off for what seems like years, getting Barry to fight and win when some deadbeat doesn't pay up, and then boom, the woman cometh. The woman." It's really quite astounding how much Barry and Lady Lyndon communicate nonverbally. She had so few lines in the film, as was noted in the first post, that she didn't have to say anything. She simply was, and she knew it. They didn't have to say anything. That actually brings up another big line from Eternal Sunshine - "Constantly talking isn't necessarily communicating".

Something I want to ask that may have been asked and discussed previously but I missed out on - Did Barry ever love Lady Lyndon? Or was she just another stepping stone? At the almost beginning of their time together that we saw, he was smoking in the carriage, she reluctantly spoke, and he blew smoke right in her face. That didn't seem like childish jeering, and more like budding disdain and disrespect. It was the "now that I'm in, who cares about you". He hated the kid, that much was totally clear, but he came with the job title I guess. He especially hated the kid after his own died from the horse. The only time it seemed he didn't hate the kid was at the duel. The kid hated him the whole time, and I understand. The only person (or people, but I'm talking about a concept) that Barry loved unequivocally was his father. We didn't see his dad for more than a few seconds when he was shot dead in the duel (like father like son...) but throughout part one we got to see plenty of fathers, and europe1 described them perfectly.


The pacing was fascinating for this film. At times, there's no two ways about it, it was excruciating. Other times, it was brilliant, skipping immediately to the parts that matter. Barry hears the recruitment speech in the town to join the army, and boom, he's in the army. Barry is about to get busted by the Prussians, and boom, he's in the Prussian army. He saves the Prussian's life, boom, he's rewarded, boom he's hanging out with Chevalier. He spends time with Chevalier, boom, he meets the woman, the husband dies, boom, they're married. They don't mess around with the details along the way.

This film really is the complete package, just like Barry's mean left hand. It's one of those rare films that is flawless in its execution. The cinematography is phenomenal, and I can't see that much that could be cut without taking away from some emotional development. Sure, people don't always like that it is a three hour film and can feel slow at times, but the emotional payoffs are worth it every time. They make that inevitable closeup of pain or fear or sadness that much more worth the time invested to get to that point. The first duel, with the two starkly contrasting closeups of Barry and Quinn, made the whole beginning with a somewhat slow leadup totally worthwhile. The calmness of Barry against the fear and shaking and unsurety of Quinn paint the perfect picture. That's what Kubrick did, though, and dammit he'd do 100 takes until he got the shot he was looking for. I could write a full review about the effect about the closeup shots alone.

The scenes under candlelight and other very limited lighting are extremely fascinating. You can tell from the shots that they used natural light just to shoot, which made for some beautiful shots. They produced a real authentic effect, as is expected from a director like this. I don't mean to gush more than usual about a director and his style, but come on bros, this is Kubrick.

It was difficult for me to root for Barry in the film, because he was no hero. He wasn't an anti-hero or a villain by any means, but he was a bad guy who was in the right place at the right time repeatedly. He was a conman who got lucky because a lot of people pitied him. It was likely part of his whole con, portraying himself as weak and helpless and despondent, so that people would take pity on him. But remember, for instance, his stern face when he thinks he is about to kill Quinn at the beginning. Also think of his other duels along the way, except the final one. This dude is battle hardened, duel hardened, and all around hardened, phrasing. He got himself into a lot of the problems by his own choosing, like deciding to wail on the kid in the middle of the party in front of everyone (which is a crazy faux pas), so it's difficult to feel bad as an outside observer witnessing his entire life instead of just the time you would personally interact with him. His fall was almost entirely his own fault. His story was compelling when things were good and when things were bad alike. You can't have the sweet without the sour. At the same time, however, ambiguity towards Barry doesn't mean that I prefer another character acting against him, like the kid.

This movie is a beast. I could say so much more but the discussion has largely already passed by. It's become my trademark to chime in way after the discussion is over, so I'll keep it real. Maybe if I'm motivated like BJ Penn, I'll pound through Blood Simple tomorrow after work. It's hard to look at a Kubrick film and say "this is the best of his work", but Barry Lyndon may be that best. How can you argue against The Shining, 2001, Full Metal Jacket, Dr. Strangelove, or Clockwork Orange, though? I may make an open-ended poll asking about the GOAT director, but I'm pretty sure it's been done time and time again. I'm not sure if Kubrick is my GOAT, but he's got to be in my top three.

Gotta give this one 9/10. And then if someone asks what 10/10 films I'd list, I don't know what I could come up with outside of the blah blah ones you hear about on the IMDB top 10 list.

One last thing - I just now picked up on the short interaction with Barry and King James, where King James backhanded him by saying he should go over there and fight the Americans. It was ice cold. Damn good writing. Damn good.
 
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I rewatched the final duel, and I've come to a conclusion that may have been touched on but I have to be honest I kind of skimmed in the middle of pages 2 and 3.

My thoughts: The kid was just that, a kid. He had gathered up all courage he could muster to call out Barry, but when he stood face to face, he reverted back to the little boy who got whipped for being a stuck up little crap. You could see it in his face. He didn't intentionally shoot off into the leg but rather, it looked like it was the first time he had fired a pistol in his life. I've seen kids at shooting ranges get scared of their firearm and drop it or misfire or other bad stuff, and this was no different. The courage he had to confront his step dad had completely melted away when he finally for the first time realized the finality of a duel of this nature. If he didn't win, he was dead, and if he did win, he killed his mother's husband. Sure, the kid grew up hating Barry, but he couldn't pull the trigger, metaphorically and literally. When Barry shot into the dirt, a spark lit in the kid's eyes again and he had finally gathered up the courage to do it. It's unclear if he intended to blow Barry away or just injure him, the conversation in the carriage about Barry's mother left it vague.

I considered if it was all part of the kid's plan to get Barry out, and to kick out Barry's mom as well, but I think when the time came, the kid lost any possible plan he had when he had the first chance to shoot Barry.
 
I haven't read The Luck of Barry Lyndon
Do it
Something I want to ask that may have been asked and discussed previously but I missed out on - Did Barry ever love Lady Lyndon? Or was she just another stepping stone?
I believe the jury's still out on that one. I don't remember in which direction everybody was leaning, but @europe1 was adamant that he did indeed love her, while I myself was and am adamant that he only ever considered her a stepping stone.
The pacing was fascinating for this film. At times, there's no two ways about it, it was excruciating. Other times, it was brilliant, skipping immediately to the parts that matter. Barry hears the recruitment speech in the town to join the army, and boom, he's in the army. Barry is about to get busted by the Prussians, and boom, he's in the Prussian army. He saves the Prussian's life, boom, he's rewarded, boom he's hanging out with Chevalier. He spends time with Chevalier, boom, he meets the woman, the husband dies, boom, they're married. They don't mess around with the details along the way.
Yeah good call. The army one is particularly slick. Shot of army guy talking, shot of Barry's face looking like "I'm totally gonna join," shot of Barry marching with other recruits.
Gotta give this one 9/10. And then if someone asks what 10/10 films I'd list, I don't know what I could come up with outside of the blah blah ones you hear about on the IMDB top 10 list.
So...what are some 10/10 films? Do you give 10s to your very favorite films, or only the one's that are "objectively the best?"
I rewatched the final duel, and I've come to a conclusion that may have been touched on but I have to be honest I kind of skimmed in the middle of pages 2 and 3.

My thoughts: The kid was just that, a kid. He had gathered up all courage he could muster to call out Barry, but when he stood face to face, he reverted back to the little boy who got whipped for being a stuck up little crap. You could see it in his face. He didn't intentionally shoot off into the leg but rather, it looked like it was the first time he had fired a pistol in his life. I've seen kids at shooting ranges get scared of their firearm and drop it or misfire or other bad stuff, and this was no different. The courage he had to confront his step dad had completely melted away when he finally for the first time realized the finality of a duel of this nature.
Yeah to me it looked like he tried to cock his pistol the first time while his finger was on the trigger, and then just accidentally squeezed.
 
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