SHERDOG MOVIE CLUB: Week 14 Discussion - Barry Lyndon

[Guestx]

Depends on what one would consider fun times and a happy ending.

It's one hell of a movie though. Make sure you watch the unrated version. The R rated cut is a travesty.

Ha. Well I meant it in the most conventional sense. Indiana Jones = fun times and a happy ending.

But I will check out Eyes Wide Shut. Is there really that much material excised from the theatrical cut?

 

[HUNTERMANIA]

Make it happen! Club hasn't been the same without you, the originator of the stream of consciousness review. Often imitated, never duplicated.

(lol I literally have this in my post already -- I debated not doing it that way)

Maybe this is one of those movies where I should wait and think about it at the end. Nah. I will label the parts tho.

 

[Guestx]

(lol I literally have this in my post already -- I debated not doing it that way)

Maybe this is one of those movies where I should wait and think about it at the end. Nah. I will label the parts tho.

It wouldn't be a Huntermania review with the SOC approach. You can always do a summary at the end which brings together all your thoughts after you've finished it.

 

[chickenluver]

But I will check out Eyes Wide Shut. Is there really that much material excised from the theatrical cut?

I can't really answer this without giving anything away, but suffice to say the US theatrical cut was done by Warner Bros because Kubrick was supposedly under contractual obligation to deliver a R rated film. Without their edits it would have likely gotten a NC-17 rating. It wasn't gone with artistic vision in mind, it was done because some theater chains and video stores won't show/rent NC-17 or unrated films.

 

[HUNTERMANIA]

Part 1:

Parents are very important. Losing a dad would be influential (sorry @europe1 I read a little bit of your post, lol, your thoughts will be on my mind as I'm watching this for sure)


Maybe this is one of those movies where I should wait and think about it at the end. Nah. I will label the parts though.

"I will think very little of you if you do not find it," -- women are so shot-out.

A young man lost on lust and glory (his cousin and the army) -- mistakenly thinking these things will bring him happiness or satisfaction or meaning.

He resolved to never see Nora again -- should have kept that resolution. "We bear but one flower and then we die" , wow, trifling bitch. Good, he owned her -- but he should have just left it alone. Forgiveness, compassion, and understanding > emotional volatility. I am still learning this, as you can see by me saying "good, he owned her," lol!

Redmond is following his father's path (dueling, probably over stupid shit like he did) even though he was never around his dad. Sometimes curses are generational and hereditary (even if not technically genetic... although, the role of genetics is very relevant in all of our behavior unless we do something to transcend it. We are in a gradual descent into greater and greater wickedness, even if we are unaware of it and even if it comes out in different forms that may not be recognized as 'wicked' -- unless we come to God). I know this movie isn't about religion, at least I think it's not, like the last one I reviewed WAS ABOUT (that horror movie, I can't remember the name). I will see what I think the film-makers intention is, but my comments are going to be coming, at least, in part, from a perspective involving God in life.


I have watched this movie before actually... and I think the intention is just to talk about life in a frank manner. Although, I don't remember exactly. I will try to be open to any interpretation.

Barry joins the army after not winning the girl even though he won the duel and is now fighting some guy. Desperate for approval. Never had his parent's (dad's, at least), full love. "Barry's training continued" -- he's training to be a person in the world, of the world. Wow - the duel was faked. Betrayed by his family.


Pretty much every single line in this movie is worthy of some commentary and it's 3 hours long. I'm gonna TRY to not say so much, lol.

"Barry determined that he was in his proper sphere" --- this is a good example of what happens when we set our own standards. He's a deserter and a complete charlatan who is faking as an officer/gentleman, yet he is happy with this because he is getting what he wants in the moment. What he has is not a reflection of his character... well, actually, it is, but not in a good way.

I just realized... I'm not even going to be able to review my own movie picks as the person I am now because I am not the same as the person who picked them, lol! I'll just respond to everyone's thoughts with how I used to think, but I won't do one of these posts... it would be too much double-think for me to handle. I'll end up saying a lot anyways, I'm sure.

"Barry was soon very advanced in the science of every kind of misconduct" (after he gets caught as a deserter) -- just as I said, he's in training to be a person in the world, of the world. This narrator is making perfect sense to me. This movie is good.

This is just a movie about life as a person in the world, I think (searching for meaning, how to accept oneself, etc --- all manifested in different statuses and titles and ways that other might think of us -- first a woman, then society in general for 'pride' as a 'gentleman', then once this was played out, money and companionship with another father figure -- I think @europe1 is right to point this theme out -- all of these 'specific' ways of being a person in the world, though, are pointless to me to differentiate because there is either God or Not God in my mind. The Narrator pretty much sums up everything every scene I feel so far). A specific person in the world, but it is the world depicted as it actually is. I feel every comment I make is going to reflect that in some way. That might sound very obvious and broad, and I think it is obvious and broad, but because it is so well-executed with such excellent music and cinematography and every scene so elegant with this particular story that has so many twists and turns, it is a very good movie.

If something new comes up, thematically, as I finish the film, I will add to my post or make another post, but I think I have seen enough to comment on it. And the story will end up repeating itself in some way.

Perfect example: "He wants to step into my shoes! HE WANTS TO STEP INTO MY SHOES!" (the old man whose wife he steals) --- this a rotating position/status that people come in and out of and is ultimately meaningless. This is portrayed by the film and is not me reading too much into it. Altho I'm not attributing religious meaning to the film.

 

[Zer]

Thread has made for great reading as always

I actually liked O'Neal's performance, although I was on Team Bullingdon. It wasn't the most charismatic shit I've ever seen, and I guess you could describe him as set dressing for the most part, but his buttoned down performance sets up several key, emotional outpourings nicely. There were countless characters, extras that had massive screen presence which goes to show the level of design in the film. In that BisexualMMA thread I liked when someone said something like 'every frame is a painting' and it's pretty true. You end up watching shit with a different eye. I paid a lot more attention to the peripherals. I guess in a way that's a benefit to having a lead that you can't really fixate on

The battle was my main complaint. That bugged the shit outta me. Especially the shots from within the ranks. It all felt a bit History Channel

 

[dr_hellno]

@BisexualMMA you wanna get in on this Room 237 discussion since you just watched it?

Do.

I ate it up like a drug, but I knew I was watching knowing it was/contained a touch of wankery. Which I was fully, lovingly, willing to partake in, but.

 

[gorgonon]

I'm still getting used to this new software, but with my ninja mod skillz, I managed to find the deleted thread. Since I'm of the opinion that the Barry Lyndon discussion had in that thread is worth preserving for the sake of this thread, I'd be happy to "resurrect" those posts and put them in here so people have some more to chew on. However, since this is the SMC and not the SMD, I'll defer to your guys' wishes.

@shadow_priest_x, @BisexualMMA, @europe1, @chickenluver: If you guys want me to copy-and-paste the discussion we had in the last thread in here, let me know. If not, that's cool, too.

At the very least, though, I'm resurrecting my initial post

The war story... I had the impression that it was another tall tale told by Barry. It reminded me of him pretending to be Captain Fake-man, and all the tall tales and deception he told to get into the good graces of Captain Potzdorf, who in turn got him in touch with a true con man, Chevalier du Balibari.

Barry is a con man, and I think he cried because he realized how his BS caught up with him, as the one thing his dying child was most proud of him for (cutting off 19 heads?) was a fabrication of his, like everything else, and the kid loved it because he was just like him in a way, and would die because of that tenacious nature and horrible luck. Whereas Barry flourished because of that and his incredible luck.

The fact that his child was just as resourceful and deceitful and tenacious as he was (noticing the cooks talk, getting them to tell him about the horse, blatantly lying to his parents and disobeying them and impulsively stealing the horse), made it all too clear in that moment that little Bryan was truly his father's son, and that hit too close to home. Just tragic.

It all went downhill when he began to believe the lie that he deserved his noble life and listened to his mom go on about getting a lordship. Needing legitimacy was his undoing. He was best in the shadows and with seduction. Ironically, he was the one who was taken in by the larger con of buying into royalty.

Showing Bully his true nature was also a mistake.

Young Bully must have reminded Barry of when Captain Potzdorf exposed him for his true self. But instead of smoothing things over with the little tyke, he must have had a flashback of being whipped through the gauntlet and had to revert to some twisted kind of payback for the whippings he must have endured under Potzdorf's reign, quite oddly.

 

[BisexualMMA]

Do.

I ate it up like a drug, but I knew I was watching knowing it was/contained a touch of wankery. Which I was fully, lovingly, willing to partake in, but.

It was filled with kooky theories, but the whole thing was elevated by the presentation. It was a well made documentary and had a good sense of humor, with the way they superimposed stuff from The Shining into other Kubrick films, and their use of the theater audience from the Demons movies.

 

[europe1]

I rarely just flat-out tell someone that nothing they're saying has

Shit I got to stop writting these at 5 in the morning. Thanks for the shutdown.

I'm pretty sure I just parroted something that I'd heard. Should have thought about it a bit.

Again, I don't really agree. I think that Lord Bullingdon had genuine affection for his mother,

Yeah he had affection for her. He wanted to be with her at all times. Did she feel the same? Did Lord Bulldog act the way his mother wanted him to act?

"From the way I love this child, My Lord. You would have know I would have loved his elder brother. Had he proved worthy of any mothers affection".

Doesn't sound like she likes his obsessive affection. Doesn't sound like she approves of him and his behavior at all. She won't be finding happiness with such a man. Bullingdon has affection for her, but he does not understand how to heal her or make her happy. All he says is more an reflection of himself than it is of her. When he speaks about Barry's "brute manners and low-breed Irish heritage", she loaths him for it.

Mmm, I'm not sure I agree with this. I took it to mean that many men had come along with whom she had had a passionate relationship, for a time, and then they left. I didn't automatically assume sexual overtones--after all, it says her HEART had been stormed and occupied--nor did I automatically assume that the relationships and the affection she had with these men were not sincere and authentic.

It's more that the narrator presents this as a little fling. Sure, she may have had passionate relationship with other soldiers. But her's and Barry's relationship wasn't passionate. It was sensetive. Their was an intimacy to their relationship (along with the child) that goes far beyond such tawdy commentary.

"I will think very little of you if you do not find it," -- women are so shot-out..

Intresting that it's the cousin that is the bawdy one in the relationship. Barry is very shy and sensetive.

"Barry was soon very advanced in the science of every kind of misconduct"

It is interesting that we see none of this in the film. In fact, we see the exact contrary. Barry's action's are exemplarary during his Pressian days. He rescues his superior officer from the burning fire.

There is a lot of contrast to what is shown and told in Barry Lyndon.

 

[gorgonon]

@chickenluver @europe1

Here's my two cents on the relationship between Barry and the Countess.

The romantic scenes where Barry falls in love with his cousin and the countess were both wonderfully done. The heavy breathing, the subtle peeks she would sneak of him. The fidgeting and nervousness that overtook her. The way she tried to act normal but she didn't even notice her companion staring at her with a surprised look on his face.

She was a woman of distinction, her husband was probably her first and she married him for his influence. She didn't love him, she didn't enjoy sleeping with him. Her and Barry never said a word to each other, their relationship was 100% physical. Barry never cared for her as a person, they never talked, she barely talked. She knew it was a sham, but so was her first marriage, at least this time the sex was good. Why else did she stay with him?.. Woman love bad boys, and she had a strong physical attraction to him.

When she got emotional at the end as she signed the bill for Barry, she was probably did miss him, she wasn't getting any. She was torn between physical satisfaction and emotional satisfaction.

Kubrick made Lolita, and he had the cousin scene in here, the word taboo doesn't mean much to him, hence the reason he loves Barry Lyndon... Bullingdon never had eyes for anyone, they never showed him so much as looking at another woman... Many of those blue-blooded royal families were rife with incest... When Bullingdon snapped, he was more upset about Barry not treating his mother right then he was about the family name being besmirched, or Barry robbing them of their wealth... He didn't want his mom to be free, he wanted to be with her.

When Barry decided to shut the countess out and keep her locked up at home all the time, Bullingdon was also stuck at home with her all the time as well, by default. He had no interactions with other women. He had no interest in being married, as far as we know... There's a lot we don't know, but I think Bullingdon wanted more than just control.

Bullingdon's story is almost the exact same as Barry's. Barry is his General Quinn. He came in and stole his mother/love away, just like Quinn stole Barry's love/cousin away. Barry "kills" Quinn, Bullingdon kills Barry... They both shook in fear like boys when their offer to duel was accepted. They both had to flee home and became men. They both loved their family members more than they should of. In the end Bullingdon replaces Barry.

Why did they make Barry's first love interest his cousin? She didn't leave Barry because they're cousins. There was no need to add that little bit of taboo to the story, so why did they? It wasn't just for shock value, the orgy was so tame that shock clearly wasn't Kubrick's aim here. She was a cousin because it was their way of showing us Bullingdon's true emotions without making a movie that the average person finds grossly offensive.



He became "great" when he stood up for himself and took back what was his. He went from being a peasant in exile, to being the Count of Lyndon, I don't mean he was a great person that's worthy of our admiration. Bullingon learned to be strong and tough by having to fend for himself. He became a man on his own.

Sure he was born with a silver-spoon in his mouth, but he lost it all. He offended their way by throwing public tantrums. He was exiled. Blue-blood had nothing to do with him coming back and killing Barry. That was the blue-collar in him... that he learned on his own. Unlike Barry he didn't become a man when he left town, so to speak, but he never met a love interest and therefore never got over his original love interest...

Kubrick's a weirdo. The movie's not just about decorum and aristocracy.

Really good stuff, Beard. I think the dueling pistols scene was so fascinating. First Bully is terrified, then he's cheated of his first shot, vomits, and has the balls to stand put and take the bullet to the head.

Now imagine this -- Barry Lyndon doesn't have mercy and decided to give a killshot to Bully. He essentially gets rid of his heir problem, and when the Lady Honoria Lyndon dies of flipping out crazy from both her kids dying in a matter of a week?, Barry gets everything he wants.

Why does Barry show mercy? Is it a point of honor? Did he honestly expect Bully to give up?

Bully had the perfect out. He was scared shitless and if he were anything but true of intention, he'd have run as soon as they'd give him a chance. It reminded me of when the uncles were trying to convince Barry not to go through with the first dueling pistols and take 20 gold pieces and party out in Dublin.

The balls Bully had to have to face death, then ask for a second helping. It wasn't for sure he'd hit Barry, all indications to the contrary. It might have gone off in his hand again. If he didn't hit, he was surely dead.

Re-upping on the pistol duel was what turned Bully into a bigger person than Barry, and he wasn't about owning people but avenging people. And saving his mom from a monster/predator, like any kid would do. He was loyal. Definitely think he isn't as shallow as a stunted brat or something like that.

 

[gorgonon]

It's weird because it's Barry himself telling you everything he's done, and he is intending to portray himself in a positive light, but it quickly becomes clear that he's a total piece of shit. I was actively trying not to hate him, but it was impossible. There are entire chapters dedicated to his monstrous abuse of his wife and his attempts to control her. Also those few moments in the film that make him seem not so bad are pretty much non-existent if I recall correctly.

So to get a different perspective, how was Bully portrayed in the book? More-obsessive-mommy's boy, or was he a hero of sorts?

 

[chickenluver]

So to get a different perspective, how was Bully portrayed in the book? More-obsessive-mommy's boy, or was he a hero of sorts?

Well since it's Barry narrating he hasn't a kind word to say about his stepson, in fact he hates his fucking guts, and vise-versa, so you kind of have to read between the lines. Barry is a total shit to Lady Lyndon and Bullingdon makes it his mission to get his mother away from him, so I'd say that makes him heroic, but certainly still a mommy's boy.

 

[europe1]

All he said was "I'm sorry" Any deadbeat husband can say "I'm sorry"

Yes they can. However, Barry's disrespect actually ends after that sentence. He no longer breaks his wedding vows or debases her. That indicates that his apology was sincere, instead of just for show.

 

[europe1]

Barry gets everything he wants.

Well there is nothing that Barry really "wants" at that point. He is a wreck after his progeny died. He spends his day in a drunken stupor. Ambition is behind him.

Why does Barry show mercy? Is it a point of honor? Did he honestly expect Bully to give up?

Well as mentioned Barry was traumatized after the loss of his son. Lossing did not mean that much to him. However, that alone I don't think is enough to explain his actions. He is thoroughly depressed after lossing his leg, for example. And he might as well have shot B Junior just to get it over with. Maybe the trauma had opened Barry's eyes a little, had made it apperent to him how his own actions lead to this juncture, how Lord Bulldog had suffered under his care and become the man he became. Maybe he wanted to just for once give the guy a break?

 

[Bullitt68]

Shit I got to stop writting these at 5 in the morning. Thanks for the shutdown.

It was 5 AM my time, too, and I just cranked that list of shit out and then immediately closed my computer, so if it wasn't the nicest of shutdowns...

 

[Bullitt68]

Also, @europe1: I'm noticing now, in looking over again our posts from the first Barry Lyndon thread, that I never responded to one of your points.

I said:

Barry is a fraud, he's a hollow, naive, self-involved, entitled ignoramus who goes through his life trying to be what he thinks he should be to get what he thinks he should (want to) get. And it leads him to destruction.

To which you responded:

Well I think that's a bit to hard on the lad. There is a romantic streak in him, and that yearning for something, an self-identity, is so profound and emotional. In certain scenes Barry does seem very sympathetic. Like that German widow he stays with for a night. The narrator explains it like a little fling but the sensitivity and care of which Barry displayed to her speaks of something much deeper than that. And even that scene where he meets the Countess's while she is having a bath to apologize for his disrespectful behavior speaks of someone in touch with another person's feelings.

There are streaks of humanity in Barry under all that ruthless social climbing and swindling that he does. He is not hollow in the sense that Alex DeLarge is hollow. He is just rootless and tormented and trying to adopt to what sucess and prestige in society should be like.

I like to try to always take the time to acknowledge when someone makes a good point against me. Countering that claim of mine with the scene with the German widow is a good move, and I like the notion of there being "streaks of humanity in Barry." That's a very apt and eloquent description. Still, though, I want to stress, as @chickenluver has been bringing to light with reference to the book, that Barry was written in a way not all that dissimilar from the way Nabokov wrote Humbert Humbert in Lolita (though Kubrick definitely softened their characterizations since, contrary to common perception, Kubrick himself was actually quite romantic in his own way): They think they're the heroes of their stories. It's our job to make clear the lines between hero and scoundrel. If I was pressing too hard down the scoundrel track, it was only to keep it from being occluded, though I appreciate the check to ensure my efforts to prevent the scoundrel track being occluded didn't in turn occlude the hero track

 

[europe1]

It was 5 AM my time, too, and I just cranked that list of shit out and then immediately closed my computer

Yes but you're American. We know that you operate following the day cycle of your nation of birth. Sort of like how vampires must sleep in the soil of their homeland.

so if it wasn't the nicest of shutdowns..

It is proper to be brutal in manners when discussing Kubrick trivia.

 

[europe1]

I like to try to always take the time to acknowledge when someone makes a good point against me.

We shall christen this phenomena the "Lon Chaney Jr seeing the moonlight" occurance!

Spoiler

But if that was true then you would be wearing a Fury Road t-shirt by now!

"streaks of humanity in Barry." That's a very apt and eloquent description

Damn I was so much more well-spoken in those days. I've really let me prose go.

though Kubrick definitely softened their characterizations since, contrary to common perception, Kubrick himself was actually quite romantic in his own way

I find the cold and uncaring persona that Kubrick has been given in popular culture rather intresting. Oscar Isaac said, that he partly based his bad guy character in Ex Machina on Kubrick. Yet, while Kubrick could certainly swindle people at chess, I find that personality rather hard to reconcille.

Hell, I even remember one article where someone said that while visiting Kubrick's english manor, Kubrick would allow children to play in his office while he worked there.

They think they're the heroes of their stories. It's our job to make clear the lines between hero and scoundrel. If I was pressing too hard down the scoundrel track, it was only to keep it from being occluded, though I appreciate the check to ensure my efforts to prevent the scoundrel track being occluded didn't in turn occlude the hero track

 

[gorgonon]

Well there is nothing that Barry really "wants" at that point. He is a wreck after his progeny died. He spends his day in a drunken stupor. Ambition is behind him.



Well as mentioned Barry was traumatized after the loss of his son. Lossing did not mean that much to him. However, that alone I don't think is enough to explain his actions. He is thoroughly depressed after lossing his leg, for example. And he might as well have shot B Junior just to get it over with. Maybe the trauma had opened Barry's eyes a little, had made it apperent to him how his own actions lead to this juncture, how Lord Bulldog had suffered under his care and become the man he became. Maybe he wanted to just for once give the guy a break?

The way you're framing it, that would definitely show a development of character, so I think that's a great reading of why he didn't shoot Bully that one time. The old Barry would have, though, we must admit.

Bully is the one who showed incredible bravery in that exchange, and I guess we can say that Barry showed a different kind of bravery, in that he departed from his old way of using people as props and pawns in a transactional way, and became reflective after his loss, and more forgiving.

Or maybe he was looking for suicide by firing pistol and Bully screwed up once again? I'd really have to revisit that scene to see how O'Neal plays it, if he is shocked or taken aback by not being shot, or was he resigned, nay welcoming to his fate. How did he react when Bully wanted to take the second shot again? I didn't sense him acting affronted, maybe he was just depressed like you said.