SHERDOG MOVIE CLUB: Week 14 Discussion - Barry Lyndon

[applesbananas]

Watched this movie for the first time a couple months ago. One of my favorite movies of all time. The way that film was shot is beautiful. The soundtrack is awesome too, especially when

Spoiler

Barry Lyndon duels his son-in-law near the end of the movie.

Dope poster as well:

 

[BeardotheWeirdo]

* Contrary to legend, this film did use artificial lighting in some scenes (for example, when Brian learns he's getting a horse). However, it is true that no electronic lighting was used for the candle-lit scenes. A lens built by the Carl Zeiss company for NASA, a fifty millimetre Zeiss lens modified with the Kollmorgen adaptor used in still cameras, was used to shoot scenes lit only by candle. This lens had the largest aperture of any ever built for movie use (f/0.7).

They used three wicks in each candle to make the flames brighter. You can tell, the flames were really wide.

* Many of the shots were composed and filmed in order to evoke certain eighteenth century paintings, especially those by Thomas Gainsborough.

I read that quote on imdb also, and google image searched Thomas Gainsborough paintings, and that trivia fact is only partially true. The modeled the clothing of some of the characters after clothing from Thomas Gainsborough's paintings. As I watched the movie nothing stood out that looked familiar from his paintings except this one, titled "blue boy"

Lord Bullingdon's outfit at Barry and the countess' wedding looked sort of similar to this.

I searched and couldn't find any link between this painting and Kubrick or Barry Lyndon. I did find out that Quentin Tarantino modelled one of Django's outfits from this painting.

* According to Stanley Kubrick's biographer, Robert Redford was the original choice for the role of Barry Lyndon but turned it down.

The studio forced Kubrick to choose a lead star from some list of the ten top actors at the time. O'Neal and Redford were the only two available. So O'Neal was basically his only option... it worked out though.

* The few bits of German and French dialogue in the film are translated into English if you turn on English subtitles on the DVD, although no subtitles were used in the standard print of the film.

I watched without subtitles. I wasn't going to go and download it and find subtitles that far into the movie, especially considering how short the original foreign dialogue was.

* It took 42 days to edit the final duel between Barry and Lord Bullingdon.

Actually, that's not that surprising. Europe1 thought the final duel in Shane was perfect, but compared to this duel, it kind of pales in comparison. The emotions on Bullingdon's face and in his body posture, the shaking and everything, it was truly masterful.

Edit: to be fair, no one in Shane was scared shitless in that scene so I shouldn't compare them

​

 

[chickenluver]

* What the fuck is up with the dudes with the powdered faces? Take this guy here. He looks like a literal fucking clown. He looks ri-goddamn-diculous. Can anyone explain how this kind of shit was actually in fashion at one point?

lmao I must admit I share this sentiment. It's a strange look for sure. The wigs I can understand because they all had disgusting, lice-filled hair, but the white face paint is a bad look.

* Formal duels were such an odd thing. You're just supposed to stand there and let a dude shoot at you? Fuck that.

Apparently the historically accurate way is that the one being challenged always takes his shot first, rather than flipping for it. Since Barry was challenged by Bullingdon, he should have had first shot. I can kind of see the logic in this because it makes it so you can't just walk up to a guy, demand satisfaction, win the first shot, and kill the fucker. It's still pretty weird. I prefer the duels in the beginning when they both shoot at the same time. That's something that puzzles me about the final duel is why were the rules different than the first duel?

* On a similar note, what a strange way it was that armies used to fight each other. Let's all line up and consciously walk into gunfire.

Yeah marching straight towards oncoming gunfire seems like literal insanity. I know the inaccuracy of those rifles is a big reason warfare was so different, but seems like they should at least run at the enemy so as to get there faster and with as many men as possible.

* I took particular note of this line from the narrator: "This heart of Lieschen's was like many a neighboring town and had been stormed and occupied several times before Barry came to invest in it." That's good fucking writing.

The narration is one of my favorite parts of the film for sure. Most of it is taken directly from the novel or altered slightly.

 

[DaDamn]

Great work shadow, I'm still looking for a place to watch this damn movie for free. If anyone has a site, hit me up.
/Bump
Edit: Got link, tyvm.

this

 

[europe1]

* Father-Figure

How does Barry Lyndon start? With the murder of his father during a duel. The scene is filmed from a faraway angle. We never learn anything about the man. We are only told that the duel happened for no good reason. Our relationship and understanding of him is nill. He is not a character in the film. So, why start the film with him?

The importance of this event is not that the father died. The importance is Barry's loss. Even before birth he is robbed of a father figure. This is the underlying trauma of his psyche. This is the hole within him. He has been raised without a guiding hand and therefore lacks an solid identity of his own. To add insult to injury, just as he sets out on his journey he is dispossessed of his fathers sword by a father-son robbery team. The one thing keeping him rooted gone.

Barry's involvement in his own son goes to the extreme. There is an emotional intensity and dependence in their relationship that would be unseemly by the cold standards of the day (not to mention Kubrick's standards). Even parents who love their children dearly does not go to the levels of sentimentality that Barry does. So why does this transpire? Barry's investment in his son is his attempt to heal this trauma within him. He was born without a father and tries to compensate by loving his own son to the extreme. My progeny shall have what I never had, kind of thing.

Sadly, it might have been the sense of entitlement that Barry raised his son with that eventually ended up killing him. Barry never tells his son the word "no". The son, given so much that he does not understand boundaries, sneaks away from home to ride his horse. Barry's extreme investment in his son's happiness prevents him from performing a level-headed upbringing.

The other great tragedy, is Barry's failure to extend the same love and affection for his adopted son, Lord Bullingdon. This is especially grevious, since like Barry, young Bullingdon has also been robbed of his father. Would Bullingdon's unhealthy obsession with his mother have developed at all if he was presented with a father-figure of his own?


However, there is more to this theme of fatherhood than just Barry and his son. Through his travels, Barry encounters many of what you'd call "parential figuers". He encounters older men that are there to instruct him in some identity.

Warm and open-hearted Grogan in the British army, who is sadly killed off and leaves Barry and orphan.



Captain Potzdorf, a much stricter parential figure, who later trains him as a spy.

Chevalier du Balibari, the sucessful one who takes Barry under his wing after he breaks down before him.

As well as his neglectful uncle, who seems to take no head of Barry's wishes or emotions at all.


These men teach him identity. The school him in some task. Barry is a man who changes maskes through the film. His changing identity correspending to this yearning for a father figure.

 

[chickenluver]

The studio forced Kubrick to choose a lead star from some list of the ten top actors at the time. O'Neal and Redford were the only two available. So O'Neal was basically his only option... it worked out though.

This is one piece of trivia I find absolutely mind blowing. Mostly because Ryan O'Neal was only ever on the top ten list that one time, and mostly due to the success of a single film, Love Story, which many believe was a success because of the drawing power of his co-star. Basically the planets aligned perfectly for O'Neal to be in the film at that time. I'm so happy it happened the way it did, I can't imagine this film with even a single detail altered, much less an entirely different lead actor.

 

[chickenluver]

Sadly, it might have been the sense of entitlement that Barry raised his son with that eventually ended up killing him. Barry never tells his son the word "no". The son, given so much that he does not understand boundaries, sneaks away from home to ride his horse. Barry's extreme investment in his son's happiness prevents him from performing a level-headed upbringing.

This is something I thought about for the first time with this viewing. Certainly adds another layer of tragedy. Goddammit, I thought with this being my 4th viewing I would refrain from crying at the scene of Barry trying to tell his dying son a story, but I couldn't help it.

As well as his neglectful uncle, who seems to take no head of Barry's wishes or emotions at all.

I think that's a little unfair. We hear that his uncle has been good to him, and Barry himself says he's close like a father. I don't think it's unreasonable at all for the uncle to want his daughter to marry a wealthy English officer rather than his broke teenage nephew, who was infatuated briefly but clearly got over her with the quickness.

 

[Bullitt68]

If that's what everyone wants to go then I'm okay with it.

 

[Bullitt68]

Here are the most substantial posts from the Barry Lyndon thread started by BisexualMMA a couple of weeks ago in the order in which they were posted. In light of europe's point about throwing off the layout of the thread, I have opted for copying-and-pasting the quotes like this rather than actually moving the posts in here or merging the threads. Hopefully this is a neater and more economical way of getting this material in here without fucking shit up too much:

Recently watched this movie and, like Heaven's Gate (though to a lesser degree), it is somewhat polarizing.

Like Heaven's Gate, it's long as hell (3 hours) and for my money, longer than it needed to be.

It divides some people into groups who think it is (a) Stanley Kubrick's unappreciated masterpiece, or (b) a lesser work of Kubrick that is unnecessarily boring.

Here is what I thought, and fellow Sherdoggers let me know what your opinion is...

This movie suffers from one of the least interesting and charismatic protagonists I have seen in a long time. Ryan O'Neal is simply a prop in the film for the most part, and he is the star for 180 minutes. You never really get to know Barry Lyndon, he never really reacts to his circumstances, be they good or bad, and he never really displays any emotions or characteristics.

The movie has the length of a great epic like Spartacus, yet little of what Lyndon does makes his story worthy of being told so extensively.

With that said, the last 30 minutes or so are great. There is some very impressive tension built, and Barry Lyndon FINALLY shows SOME aspects of his character. I also think these scenes might be where John Woo got the idea for all of his doves and pigeons flying around during gun scenes. Stanley Kubrick invented that shit.

Also, the whole way through the cinematography is very good. It ranges from very good (at its worst) to absolutely fucking spectacular at its best. Like this shot...

That's actually a frame from the movie.

Ryan O'Neal isn't necessarily a bad actor, but for the first 2.5 hours, he was a charismatic black hole that made Jai Courtney seem like an enthralling guy. I think this movie needed to cast someone in the lead who can be compelling while doing nothing, which is a pretty rare ability.

The love and care that Kubrick invested into his shots is readily apparent. But the movie could have been condensed or the script and plot livened up. The movie looked terrific, but by the end, it was crazy to think about how little had actually happened over the course of the film.

I'd give it maybe a 7...

For my money, Barry Lyndon is one of the greatest movies ever made, and after 2001, is Kubrick's greatest. It's also one of the most heartbreaking movies out there. Not that bad shit happens to a good guy, because Barry is not a good guy. It's just a movie of pain, of suffering, of tragic mistakes, of loss, of regret, of disappointment, and of profound sadness. Yet, paradoxically (and intentionally so, a part of Kubrick's genius), it's also one of the most beautiful films ever shot, and the gorgeous locations, production design, and cinematography coupled with the amazing soundtrack, it's just an aesthetic treat.

I think one of the problems for a lot of people - and Bisexual, it sounds like this might apply to you - is that the slow pace and the detached feel of the narrative prevents them from really connecting with Barry. One of the most moving sequences in all of cinema is when. . .

Spoiler

Barry is telling his dying son his favorite war story, and he can't even make it through and just breaks down, and then that devastating cut to that tiny little casket and the extremely somber music, absolutely crushing scene

. . .and when I think of that scene (or when he breaks down in front of the Chevalier, or when he's disciplining Bullingdon young and old) and then read how you think he "never really reacts to his circumstances" and "never really displays any emotions or characteristics," I can't help but feel like you watched a different movie.

It's a cliche with Kubrick, and people often find it condescending, but it's truer for Kubrick than anyone else: GIve it time and rewatch it and it'll likely improve in your esteem. It's a challenging film given its length, its protagonist, and its solemnity, but I have always found it to be one of the most deeply affecting movies I've ever seen.

In my book, Barry Lyndon is nothing short of a masterpiece.

This movie suffers from one of the least interesting and charismatic protagonists I have seen in a long time. Ryan O'Neal is simply a prop in the film for the most part, and he is the star for 180 minutes. You never really get to know Barry Lyndon, he never really reacts to his circumstances, be they good or bad, and he never really displays any emotions or characteristics.

Well that was what Kubrick wanted out of him.

Stanley wanted to emulate that stoic decorum of the times. No one displayed any emotion becuse the social structure of the time did not allow such emotions to be displayed. Everyone in Barry Lyndon is wearing a mask, a societal mask meant to make them palpable to the society they live in. You see it crack at only a few instances (such as when Barry first encounteres that Baron, or when a certain someone dies. Or when Bullingdon calls Lyndon low Irish trash).

That is why O'Neal gives such subtle reactions to everything -- becuse the norms and standards of his day does not allow him to.

Becuse of this, every emotion in Barry Lyndon is supremely restrained. Every human being in that movie has to master their emotions ruthlessly. Barry and the Countess romance is communicated in such a restrained yet powerful manner. You have to unveil every thought and emotion for yourself, really entrench yourself in the film to truly grasp what the people are feeling and thinking. It is restrained, subtle, yet so immensely powerful.

And when the emotions ARE unleashed into the open, without any societal restrains, the reactions is so much more powerful than they would have been in other situations. That strict decorum makes the purely dramatic scenes really count and feed into your heart.



When it comes to Barry Lyndon, I agree completely with what Martin Scorsese had to say about it.



14:40-17:00

"On the surface, the approach was cool, distant, deceptive. But I found this to be one of the most profoundly emotional films I've ever seen".

Bullitt in the Serious Movie Discussion thread always talks about how Kubrick wasn't some cold and dejected robot that so many people make him out to be. Barry Lyndon is a true testament to that. I can scarcely think of another person in film whose emotions and destiny has involved me so much as Barry Lyndon's.

EDIT: SHIT THAT BASTERD BEAT ME TO IT!!!

I think one of the problems for a lot of people - and Bisexual, it sounds like this might apply to you - is that the slow pace and the detached feel of the narrative prevents them from really connecting with Barry. One of the most moving sequences in all of cinema is when. . .

Spoiler

Barry is telling his dying son his favorite war story, and he can't even make it through and just breaks down, and then that devastating cut to that tiny little casket and the extremely somber music, absolutely crushing scene

. . .and when I think of that scene (or when he breaks down in front of the Chevalier, or when he's disciplining Bullingdon young and old) and then read how you think he "never really reacts to his circumstances" and "never really displays any emotions or characteristics," I can't help but feel like you watched a different movie.

For the last half hour, Barry Lyndon's portrayal felt like one of great stoicism that I appreciated.

I also found his act of redemption to be restrained, understated and powerful.

But for much of the previous 2.5 hours, it felt more to me like he was not feeling much of his own life, rather than always experiencing powerful emotions and covering them up. He seemed depressed or indifferent as much as stoic.

I understood the notion that the era required its people to display a reserved veneer. But I felt there were scenes that made this point redundantly, while offering little that the previous scenes hadn't given.

I think that Al Pacino got a similar message across about stoicism and veneers in the Godfather II, in far less screen time and with many other things being achieved with the plot and supporting characters.

EDIT: SHIT THAT BASTERD BEAT ME TO IT!!!

Do you demand satisfaction?

I'm pressed for time and couldn't really respond in detail, so it's good that you posted. You added a lot to the discussion, especially about the way Kubrick handled emotions in the context of that story in that time period. Plus, you referenced Scorsese, which always scores points with me. I love that video series he did. And I love the way he characterizes Barry Lyndon as a "grim journey of self-destruction." That's as perfect a description as I can think of.

For the last half hour, Barry Lyndon's portrayal felt like one of great stoicism that I appreciated.

For much of the previous 2.5 hours, it felt more to me like he was not feeling much of his own life, rather than always experiencing powerful emotions and covering them up. He seemed depressed or indifferent as much as stoic.

I wouldn't use the word stoic. I like what europe was talking about with masks. It's not about maintaining a strong exterior while all kinds of shit is going on underneath. It's about never showing on the outside what's happening on the inside. Regardless of what's going on inside of Barry, what determines what he shows on the outside is predicated on what he thinks is required given the particular context. It's not just one mask that he wears (a stoic mask); rather, it's about shuffling through a whole array of different social masks none of which are able to actually provide Barry with a genuine personality/identity which is what he so desperately craves but goes about so terribly trying to achieve.

What you're saying about "not feeling much of his own life," that's accurate, only that isn't - or shouldn't be - a criticism. That's the point. Barry is a fraud, he's a hollow, naive, self-involved, entitled ignoramus who goes through his life trying to be what he thinks he should be to get what he thinks he should (want to) get. And it leads him to destruction. The only honest, genuine moments in his life are with his son. In every other facet, in every other experience, he's that gambler, that shyster, and by the time he decides to act honorably, he has so much to answer for, so much to atone for, that his karmic checkbook is such that he is not rewarded for his honor but forced to continue to suffer for all of the suffering he's caused.

You're noticing a lot of key aspects to the film and the character, but you seem to think they are flaws of the film or O'Neal's performance or oversights on Kubrick's part, when really, they're at the very heart of what Kubrick was after with that character and his story. If you follow Barry's journey as one of a kid who came from nothing who tried to make it by faking and cheating his way to the top and was made to pay for his sins, it changes the game and may allow you to see the film and the character in a new light.

Do you demand satisfaction?

Don't force me into making another The Duelists reference!

I love that video series he did.

Yes. It is excellent. I've watched it multiple times. He really gives an extensive, informed, yet at the same time intensely personal breakdown of American film and it's history.

none of which are able to actually provide Barry with a genuine personality/identity which is what he so desperately craves but goes about so terribly trying to achieve.

It is intresting that there is a theme of absent fatherhood in Barry's character. The movie opens with the death of his father -- before he was born, the scene frammed like a painting. Many of Barry's subsequent encounters with older men can be read as searching for a father figure, notably Chevalier. And not to mention Barry's own thorough investement in his own son, to compensate for his own lack of one. Barry's rootlessness and lack of self-identity could be traced back to this.

That's the point. Barry is a fraud, he's a hollow, naive, self-involved, entitled ignoramus who goes through his life trying to be what he thinks he should be to get what he thinks he should (want to) get. And it leads him to destruction. The only honest, genuine moments in his life are

Well I think that's a bit to hard on the lad. There is a romantic streak in him, and that yearning for something, an self-identity, is so profound and emotional. In certain scenes Barry does seem very sympathetic. Like that German widow he stays with for a night. The narrator explains it like a little fling but the sensitivity and care of which Barry displayed to her speaks of something much deeper than that. And even that scene where he meets the Countess's while she is having a bath to apologize for his disrespectful behavior speaks of someone in touch with another person's feelings.

There are streaks of humanity in Barry under all that ruthless social climbing and swindling that he does. He is not hollow in the sense that Alex DeLarge is hollow. He is just rootless and tormented and trying to adopt to what sucess and prestige in society should be like.

You're noticing a lot of key aspects to the film and the character, but you seem to think they are flaws of the film or O'Neal's performance or oversights on Kubrick's part, when really, they're at the very heart of what Kubrick was after with that character and his story. If you follow Barry's journey as one of a kid who came from nothing who tried to make it by faking and cheating his way to the top and was made to pay for his sins, it changes the game and may allow you to see the film and the character in a new light.

I'm not necessarily saying that O'Neal or Kubrick failed to achieve what they set out to do with these aspects of the film.

But I feel like they set out to do something where the emotion and drama were so subdued and lacking in variance that it became a challenge to sustain interest over the first 150 minutes or so.

If drama and emotion could be graphed, the first 2.5 hours would look kind of like this...

...and I don't think it was necessary to have the graph appear that flat for that long, in order to achieve what I took to be the main goals of the film.

In the end, the film did provide me with satisfaction. But it was kind of like, "thank god that first 2.5 hours was leading somewhere."

 

[dr_hellno]

Such a cunt.

And, for trivia buffs, the actor went on to be Kubrick's personal assistant for the rest of his life; then Todd Field's after Eyes Wide Shut.

 

[europe1]

That's something that puzzles me about the final duel is why were the rules different than the first duel?

Diffrent social classes have diffrent rules, I assume.

but I couldn't help it.

Bah! I never cry!

Spoiler

I weep.

* I took particular note of this line from the narrator: "This heart of Lieschen's was like many a neighboring town and had been stormed and occupied several times before Barry came to invest in it." That's good fucking writing.

That quote may be very witty, but it is a complete and utter mischaracterization of their relationship. It makes out their encounter to be some one-night fling. But watch closely, what they had was much deeper than that. Note the sensetivity to which Barry handles her. How gently he looks at her and his son. There is almost nothing sexual about it even. He is just content with the family-like closeness that he gets to experience with her. And she returns the emotion. They have intimacy, despite the decorum. Their closeness is even hinted at in how the girl understands that Jonathan Fakenham isn't his real name, and she asks him for it.

Their encounter reveals just what a sensetive and yearning soul Barry really is.

And I suppose there is some enjoyment in seeing Lord Bullingdon get some measure of satisfaction in the end.

Lord Bullingdon's triump is hardly a force of good, especially for his mother. He now possesses her, as he always wanted. See the look of utter sadness upon the Lady's face when he places a letter before her bearing Barry's name on it. She is crushed, traumatized beyond belief. She is going to spend the rest of her life under her son's thumb. He did not mutilate Barry to "rescue" her, be mutilated Barry so that he could "own" her. What she yearns for or desires means nothing to him, he just wants to own her. That stone-hard decorum is all that keeps her upright.

 

[BisexualMMA]

Btw, sorry to @BisexualMMA for sabotaging your thread, there were some good posts in there. Is it possible to bring a thread back from the grave? And maybe merge it with this thread?

You didn't sabotage the thread. I just thought that you would be a better person to introduce the movie to the masses due to your greater appreciation for it.

 

[chickenluver]

And, for trivia buffs, the actor went on to be Kubrick's personal assistant for the rest of his life; then Todd Field's after Eyes Wide Shut.

He's also this guy in Eyes Wide Shut. His face isn't shown, but you hear his voice.

 

[dr_hellno]

He's also this guy in Eyes Wide Shut. His face isn't shown, but you hear his voice.

I like how he called utter bullshit on that "Room 237" doc.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/31/movies/aide-to-kubrick-on-shining-scoffs-at-room-237-theories.html

 

[Sampsonsimpson]

One of my top 10 all time favorite films. It really transports you to another time and place like few others. I've been holding off on watching it again for quite some time so that it feels new and fresh again when I do.

 

[europe1]

Consider this scene where Barry Lyndon meets King George. (yes, this was the best picture I could find)

What transpires? The King and Barry exchange pleasantries. Then the King's attendant tells him that Barry has raised soldiers to fight for him in the American colonies. How does the King respond? "Good Mr Lyndon. Raise another one, and go with them!" in a very throw-away, irreverant manner.

This is an insults. In the decorum of the time, insults are underhanded. The aristocracy hates him for his common-born roots. What do they call him? A low-breed ruffian. A commoner. Lord Bullingdon calls him a low Irish upstart. They mean this as an insult. These are decadent people. They do not just hate Barry for his oppertunist manners, they hate him for his low-birth.

 

[europe1]

Similarly, Barry's big break with the blue-bloods comes when he assults Lord Bullingdon in front of them. Here is what's important in this scene. They ostracize him not because of how mean he has been to his stepson. All that underhanded, behind-closed-doors psychical trauma that Barry has inflicted upon Lord Bullingdn is not something they care about. It's the breach of decorum. Barry assaults him, openly. This breaks the tranquile social codes that govern their lives. It is only when the punches start to fly that they emit any noise at all.

And how does the aristocracy show this? They ignore Barry, they give phony excuses that prevent them from meeting him. Nobody repremends him for the evil he has done. Nobody tells him about how brutal he was to his stepson. They simply freeze him out socially. It's the decorum again. Tranquility is a must in their lives. They refuse to talk to him straight. See a problem? Then isolate it.

 

[BeardotheWeirdo]

I was immediately aware of the fact that we were in the hands of a master filmmaker just by the way the opening scene with the duel was handled. In the hands of a lesser filmmaker this scene would've been worked in a more conventional fashion with a variety of shots and edits, but Kubrick chooses instead to show restraint and let the scene play out in a single long shot. It just FEELS like the right decision and we know we're in good hands in terms of craft.

Good point, that scene struck me as being very authentic, but I didn't think about why that was.

What the fuck is up with the dudes with the powdered faces? Take this guy here. He looks like a literal fucking clown. He looks ri-goddamn-diculous. Can anyone explain how this kind of shit was actually in fashion at one point?

Basically they had no clue about skin care so they would use white face paint to cover their blemishes. Most British people don't tan well and sunscreen didn't exist. They didn't eat healthily, small pox epidemics run rampant, there were no acne creams, and everyone was greasy. Very few people had nice soft smooth skin, so they would use white face paint to give the illusion of clean, pale British skin. It was a sign of wealth and nobility. Poor people couldn't afford make-up.

Don't forget that they were morons at the time, by today's standards. When England colonized India soldiers were dying en masse, from infected sub burns. So they would bundle them up in lots of thick clothes to protect the soldiers from the sun, and they would die from heat exhaustion and dehydration. The leaders were clueless about how to deal with the son. One general was smart enough to figure out and after months and months of debate finally convinced the leaders to send out the soldiers in t-shirts for very short periods of time, to condition their skin to the sun. Don't let the eloquentness of their speech fool you, they were idiots. In 200 years or less they'll look back at us and laugh and the things we believed.

In some third world countries fat women are desirable because they're healthy and wealthy. Skinny peasants are boring, plain and ugly, by way of social standards. Culture played a part, no one wanted a poor/sick spouse.

They still look cooler than these guys, who were popular when I was in grade school

* Formal duels were such an odd thing. You're just supposed to stand there and let a dude shoot at you? Fuck that. Now the sword duels, that takes some real skill. That's a fight. But the pistol duels seem foolhardy and strange at best.

They basically flipped a coin to see who would die... That doesn't make much sense to me.

Formal duels still take skill, the talent of mastering your nerves is a must for those types of situations.

With the quality of their guns though luck surely played a big factor.

On a similar note, what a strange way it was that armies used to fight each other. Let's all line up and consciously walk into gunfire. I have to at least give them this, that takes balls. No wonder Mel Gibson and his crew were so successful in The Patriot, though.

* I took particular note of this line from the narrator: "This heart of Lieschen's was like many a neighboring town and had been stormed and occupied several times before Barry came to invest in it." That's good fucking writing.

The way they fought battles then was insane. They can't show it in movies but those guns put off a tremendous amount of smoke, after a few minutes nobody could see a thing usually. That's also why they all fire at once, to make their army sound more intimidating since no one can actually see them.

The battle scenes were honestly some of, if not the best I've seen in terms of realism. Falling over dead after being shot apparently is one of the hardest things to act out because no one ever gets it right, except for this movie, the way they all fell in unison, was mesmerising. I never thought war could look so beautiful... it was strange. I loved the way they framed the one battle with an actual doorway to make it look like a painting. That was stunningly beautiful to me.

The script was brilliant. Here's another great excerpt

"It is well to dream of glorious war in a snug armchair at home, but it is a very different thing to see it first hand... Gentleman may talk of the age of chivalry, but remember the plow men, poachers, and pickpockets whom they lead, it is with these sad instruments that your great warriors and Kings have been doing their murderous work in the world"

Europe1's post is relevant as to why they painted their faces and dressed like that also.

However, its strengths does not only lay in its enchanting visuals. The word that describes the world that Barry Lyndon inhabits more than any other is "decorum". To put on a mask of pleasantness, dignity and grace. It is the idea that dominates the social interactions of its time. To sheild one's emotions that may be troubling from the outside world. Consequently, people's thoughts, desires and emotions often go unspoken. Filtered through the masks they wear. So much is left simmering under the surface.

The image Shadow-Priest posted is a visual representation of what happens when you shield your true feelings through a mask of pleasantness, dignity, and grace. You ending dressing like the crazy fashion designers tell you to, because you dare not speak out (about how stupid they look)

That idea (to a lesser extent) still dominates the social interactions of our time.

 

[chickenluver]

That quote may be very witty, but it is a complete and utter mischaracterization of their relationship. It makes out their encounter to be some one-night fling. But watch closely, what they had was much deeper than that. Note the sensetivity to which Barry handles her. How gently he looks at her and his son. There is almost nothing sexual about it even. He is just content with the family-like closeness that he gets to experience with her. And she returns the emotion. Their closeness is even hinted at in how the girl understands that Jonathan Fakenham isn't his real name, and she asks him for it.

Their encounter reveals just what a sensetive and yearning soul Barry really is.

Yeah the use of that line there is a strange juxtaposition with what we've just seen. I took it to mean that many of the woman in that town had flings with soldiers, maybe even that woman had one or more before Barry. It almost sounds rather sinister to me, as if the soldiers forced themselves upon the townswomen. Perhaps it was to emphasize that what Barry and this woman shared were something different.

Also, are you sure she's asking him his real name? I took it to mean she was asking his first name. She said what is the name before that, i think she literally meant the name that comes before the surname, the first name.

Lord Bullingdon's triump is hardly a force of good, especially for his mother. He now possesses her, as he always wanted. See the look of utter sadness upon the Lady's face when he places a letter before her bearing Barry's name on it. She is crushed, traumatized beyond belief. She is going to spend the rest of her life under her son's thumb. He did not mutilate Barry to "rescue" her, be mutilated Barry so that he could "own" her. What she yearns for or desires means nothing to him, he just wants to own her. That stone-hard decorum is all that keeps her upright.

Not sure I agree with this. We never see much of the relationship between mother and son except how it relates to Barry. His intense hatred of him was well placed, and even as a little boy he was perceptive enough to see him as a "common opportunist" and that he didn't really love Lady Lyndon. His speech to his mother in the concert recital has not a false word within it, everything he said was true, the only place he's wrong is his classism. Barry treated her badly, she was unhappy at first, and then miserable, inconsolable even, after the death of her son.

Perhaps he does want to own her. Perhaps he would have hated any man she might have married. We can't really know, since he was completely right to hate and distrust Barry. I think any living under her son's thumb for Lady Lyndon is nowhere near as restricting and soul crushing as living under Barry's thumb.

Are you saying she looked so sad when she sees Barry's name because she misses him? I'm not sure that's what you're saying, but if it is I highly doubt it. I think it was more the sad memory of all the misery she lived with because of Barry. Even the memory of the one positive thing from their relationship, their son, is tainted with tragedy.

 

[JayPettryMMA]

I'm impressed. There's already some amazing conversation on this. I'll be sure to weigh in on this in October.