Shamima Begum...

moosaev said:
I'm all for killing every ISIS bastard on Earth,... if I had it in my power I'd do that in a heartbeat. But I don't consider her a true ideogically committed ISIS member. She was 15 for God's sake. She got duped into going to what she thought was a perfect society because she was a dumb child with an undeveloped brain. She was then used as a sex toy for 3-4 years. Anyone who thinks she should be treated the same as Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi is simply overly emotional and not thinking straight.
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You don't think her treatment differed to that of Al-Badhdadi? They hunted that guy down and corned him prior to him him killing himself. Far as I know no one's hunting Begum, they've just said you made your bed now lie in it, she renounced her citizenship when pledging allegiance to ISIS. Add in the fact she's clearly unrepentant and only crying crocodile tears to get sympathy leaving her to her own fate seems entirely justified.
 
LetThemBleed said:
You don't think her treatment differed to that of Al-Badhdadi? They hunted that guy down and corned him prior to him him killing himself. Far as I know no one's hunting Begum, they've just said you made your bed now lie in it, she renounced her citizenship when pledging allegiance to ISIS. Add in the fact she's clearly unrepentant and only crying crocodile tears to get sympathy leaving her to her own fate seems entirely justified.
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I was making a rhetorical point, of course she isn't being treated like Baghdadi. My point is that it's still overly harsh treatment considering she made that decision when she was 15 yr olds. Her age at the time of offense isn't being properly accounted for imo. I'm not saying go easy on her, but permanent banishment and rendering her stateless is a bit much. There are other punishments short of that extreme.
 
Sticko said:
"Participate in terrorism" by doing what?
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The Daily Telegraph reported that Begum was an "enforcer" in ISIL's "morality police", and tried to recruit other young women to join the jihadist group.[20] She was allowed to carry a Kalashnikov rifle and earned a reputation as a strict enforcer of ISIL's laws, such as dress codes for women. An anti-ISIL activist told The Independent that there are separate allegations of "Begum [stitching] suicide bombers into explosive vests so they could not be removed without detonating".[21]

Dude, she stitched people in to suicide vests so they'd detonate if they tried to take it off...
 
moosaev said:
I was making a rhetorical point, of course she isn't being treated like Baghdadi. My point is that it's still overly harsh treatment considering she made that decision when she was 15 yr olds. Her age at the time of offense isn't being properly accounted for imo. I'm not saying go easy on her, but permanent banishment and rendering her stateless is a bit much. There are other punishments short of that extreme.
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The Daily Telegraph reported that Begum was an "enforcer" in ISIL's "morality police", and tried to recruit other young women to join the jihadist group.[20] She was allowed to carry a Kalashnikov rifle and earned a reputation as a strict enforcer of ISIL's laws, such as dress codes for women. An anti-ISIL activist told The Independent that there are separate allegations of "Begum [stitching] suicide bombers into explosive vests so they could not be removed without detonating".[21]

She carried an AK, was an enforcer for the morality police, and apparently stitched people in to suicide vests.... Why are you trying so hard to make her seem innocent?
 
moosaev said:
The brain doesn’t fully stop developing until your 20’s. Fifteen is not borderline adult, and no, she doesn’t necessarily have to “know better”. She was 15 for fucks sake, I’ll say it for the millionth time, the criminal justice system treats 15 yr olds very differently than they treat adults FOR A REASON.
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Just answer this one question for me: How old do you think a person has to be to understand that beheadings, massacres of non believers and slave trade is wrong?

If a person horribly murdered and mutilated someone at 15, do you not think they would be tried as adults in most places? Did she do that, no, but she provide aid and was also "breeding" for the lack of a better word the next generation of lunatics that would go on to do said actions if they were not stopped.
 
Yehudim said:
It isn't that she made a mistake at 15, it's that when she was like 19 years old and interviewed by the BBC she showed no remorse. The girl is dumb as rocks and too honest.

A woman of middling intelligence would have said she is so sorry and so dumb to fall for ISIS trickery. No, she says Britain needs to take her in because she has children oh and she "agrees with some British values."

Mainly the British values of treating criminals with leniency and paying for the welfare of losers. Perhaps a case can be made that she doesn't actually have responsibility for her actions because not only was she underaged, but that her IQ is too low.

An underaged retard? We can't prosecute that.
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To be honest I dont think she is as stupid as some make her out to be, as she did manage to make it to syria, I think her contempt and dislike for western values is what shone thru in that interview, believing all she would have to do was go on camera and appeal to our humanitarian values without showing any remorse.
Imo underlying the entire "incident" of western muslims going to fight for isis is the ideology of islam, and how religion can so easily be twisted for very dark and nefarious purposes.
 
TryggeTryggvar said:
Just answer this one question for me: How old do you think a person has to be to understand that beheadings, massacres of non believers and slave trade is wrong?

If a person horribly murdered and mutilated someone at 15, do you not think they would be tried as adults in most places? Did she do that, no, but she provide aid and was also "breeding" for the lack of a better word the next generation of lunatics that would go on to do said actions if they were not stopped.
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You're making a few leaps in logic here.

Firstly, there are plenty of women who were groomed by ISIS into thinking they were going to an ideal society, so it's fallacious to assume they all knew the full truth of who ISIS were.

Secondly, what relevance is it to compare Begum to a 15 year old that commits murder? She didn't commit murder. If she committed any violence the circumstances would be different and i'd say she absolutely should be banished. But given that she never took part in violence and was just used as a concubine, 15 yrs old should be enough of a mitigating factor to not permanently banish her and make her stateless.

We're going in circles here because (imo) you're letting your personal outrage at ISIS cloud what is a basic fact here: she was a minor when she made a grave error in judgement, in any other context her age would be taken into account and the book wouldn't be thrown at her. But ISIS/Islamism is the boogey man so they threw her to the wolves.
 
moosaev said:
You're making some logical leaps here. Firstly, there are plenty of women who were groomed by ISIS into thinking they were going to an ideal society so it's fallacious to assume they all knew the full truth of who ISIS were. Secondly, what relevance is it to compare her to a 15 year old that commits murder? If she committed any violence i'd say she absolutely should be banished. But given that she never took part in violence and was just used as a concubine, 15 yrs old should be enough of a mitigating factor to not permanently banish her and make her stateless.

We're going in circles here because (imo) you're letting your personal outrage at ISIS cloud what is a basic fact here: she was a minor when she made a grave error in judgement, in any other context the book wouldn't be thrown at her. But ISIS/Islamism is the boogey man so they threw her to the wolves.
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Tbh Im not the only one making logical leaps here. Its not like she lived in some 3rd world hellhole where information is limited and controlled, isis was literally one of the hottest topics at the time, their attrocities well documented on all major news networks.

Also I love the part where you say she was just used as a concubine. I seem to recall you being a muslim, so you should know what the state of womens rights are in places where fundamentalist islam is practiced. How do you think people are groomed by islamists? Do they use human rights to lure people in, or do they use islamic norms and texts? She knew full and well how her life would be like in isis land. Do you really think she would have had a change of heart if isis won?

I can be lenient on many stupid things teenagers do, but what she and others like her, male and female did, is beyond stupid.
 
TryggeTryggvar said:
Tbh Im not the only one making logical leaps here. Its not like she lived in some 3rd world hellhole where information is limited and controlled, isis was literally one of the hottest topics at the time, their attrocities well documented on all major news networks.

Also I love the part where you say she was just used as a concubine. I seem to recall you being a muslim, so you should know what the state of womens rights are in places where fundamentalist islam is practiced. How do you think people are groomed by islamists? Do they use human rights to lure people in, or do they use islamic norms and texts? She knew full and well how her life would be like in isis land. Do you really think she would have had a change of heart if isis won?

I can be lenient on many stupid things teenagers do, but what she and others like her, male and female did, is beyond stupid.
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Do you seriously think that ISIS sells these women on being sex slaves and watching beheadings? They obviously trick them. You seem totally detached from the reality that young girls (particularly children) can be incredibly gullible. The online world is full of stories of children who were lured by people on the internet. I'm honestly surprised you don't see how a 15 yr old can fall for something that seems obvious to you and me.
 
TryggeTryggvar said:
To be honest I dont think she is as stupid as some make her out to be, as she did manage to make it to syria, I think her contempt and dislike for western values is what shone thru in that interview, believing all she would have to do was go on camera and appeal to our humanitarian values without showing any remorse.
Imo underlying the entire "incident" of western muslims going to fight for isis is the ideology of islam, and how religion can so easily be twisted for very dark and nefarious purposes.
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Err, that’s a terrible point, since we know a bunch of cavemen from all over the world flew to Syria for the purposes of Jihad. Buying a plane ticket to Turkey then crossing into Syria isn’t logistically hard when the Turkish government was abetting ISIS and when ISIS agents were setting the whole thing up.

It’s difficult to judge someone’s IQ off of a few minutes of interviews I’ve seen, but she just seems really dumb to me.

It’s besides the point, anyways. I’m just pointing out that she can’t read the room. She should have shed crocodile tears from day one when her babies were dying.
 
moosaev said:
Do you seriously think that ISIS sells these women on being sex slaves and watching beheadings? You seem totally detached from the reality that young girls (particularly 15 yr old children) can be incredibly gullible. The online world is full of stories of children who were lured by people on the internet. I'm honestly surprised you don't see how a 15 yr old can fall for something that seems obvious to you and me.
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What are these children usually lured into? The norm is not joining a death cult. I can agree with you that I can understand how children are lured on the internet, but given how the information about isis was everywhere, including their own propaganda, this is a bit beyond running away with a guy, doing drugs and then being pressed into prostitution.

Or do you mean its something about islam, and the way its being practiced many places that makes these situations similar? Joining a death cult is the muslim teen equivalent to being groomed with drugs and sex?
 
Yehudim said:
Err, that’s a terrible point, since we know a bunch of cavemen from all over the world flew to Syria for the purposes of Jihad. Buying a plane ticket to Turkey then crossing into Syria isn’t logistically hard when the Turkish government was abetting ISIS and when ISIS agents were setting the whole thing up.

It’s difficult to judge someone’s IQ off of a few minutes of interviews I’ve seen, but she just seems really dumb to me.

It’s besides the point, anyways. I’m just pointing out that she can’t read the room. She should have shed crocodile tears from day one when her babies were dying.
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Sure, she might be stupid, but not so stupid as being non functional. I dont really disagree with you that she comes off as not the smartest person, but ideology can also have an effect on how people perceive reality and reads certain situations.
Im sure she is not a drooling vegetable.
 
Why isn't this woman charged with committing Crimes against Humanity ?

Isn't there any kind of charge that can be levelled against a person for aiding and abetting an organization that carried out genocide?
 
She clearly has absolutely no conscience. She's a loathsome slug and deserves far worse than she got
 
moosaev said:
If she committed any violence the circumstances would be different and i'd say she absolutely should be banished.
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The Daily Telegraph reported that Begum was an "enforcer" in ISIL's "morality police", and tried to recruit other young women to join the jihadist group.[20] She was allowed to carry a Kalashnikov rifle and earned a reputation as a strict enforcer of ISIL's laws, such as dress codes for women. An anti-ISIL activist told The Independent that there are separate allegations of "Begum [stitching] suicide bombers into explosive vests so they could not be removed without detonating".[21]

Sewing people into suicide vests that can't be removed without detonating not violent enough for you? Enforcing "morality laws" while carrying an AK probably isn't either huh?
 
MichiganMMA1978 said:
The Daily Telegraph reported that Begum was an "enforcer" in ISIL's "morality police", and tried to recruit other young women to join the jihadist group.[20] She was allowed to carry a Kalashnikov rifle and earned a reputation as a strict enforcer of ISIL's laws, such as dress codes for women. An anti-ISIL activist told The Independent that there are separate allegations of "Begum [stitching] suicide bombers into explosive vests so they could not be removed without detonating".[21]

Sewing people into suicide vests that can't be removed without detonating not violent enough for you? Enforcing "morality laws" while carrying an AK probably isn't either huh?
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I'd caution you that British daily's are not very objective or credible imo, they're very tabloidy and jingoistic. If that reporting is true however, then i take back what i said. But the facts of the case have to be objectively verified, not done via media inuendo.
 
moosaev said:
I'd caution you that British daily's are not very objective or credible imo, they're very tabloidy and jingoistic. If that reporting is true however, then i take back what i said. But the facts of the case have to be objectively verified, not done via media inuendo.
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Well... I think that could be said for most media these days.
 
MichiganMMA1978 said:
The Daily Telegraph reported that Begum was an "enforcer" in ISIL's "morality police", and tried to recruit other young women to join the jihadist group.[20] She was allowed to carry a Kalashnikov rifle and earned a reputation as a strict enforcer of ISIL's laws, such as dress codes for women. An anti-ISIL activist told The Independent that there are separate allegations of "Begum [stitching] suicide bombers into explosive vests so they could not be removed without detonating".[21]

Dude, she stitched people in to suicide vests so they'd detonate if they tried to take it off...
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Begum says in the documentary those reports were not true

She was a 15-year-old, new Muslim who didn't speak the local language. No way ISIS puts her in charge of anything

Firstly ISIS is about as patriarchal and misogynistic a culture as you can find, are they really gonna let any woman, let alone a teenage girl who doesn't speak Arabic, join the morality police? Secondly between being pregnant with and raising her 3 kids when would she have had the time? She would have been the worst morality cop ever.

They didn't say anything specifically about sewing suicide vests in the doc, other than, like I said, Begum denied the reports and denied being involved in stuff like that

If they find legit evidence of Shamima Begum doing horrible things, let them charge her and try her in Britain.
 
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