Serious question about steroids.. muscle memory?

BeRGLeZ

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Hypothetically, if you went through a steroid cycle, and bulked up heaps of muscle mass, but then later turned clean, would you have established muscle memory in your body such that having grown to size x you could achieve it later with proper dieting and lifting, at a better chance/rate than if you were to simply bulk clean from the start?

Chaotic chain of thought, but anyway, I was thinking that say for fighters that were HUGE (eg Vitor Belfort) and known to use steroids, having stopped using them, wouldn't their bodies to some extent STILL add muscle mass easier than if they were not to have ever done steroids?
 
Does anybody have any evidence muscle memory even exists? Can they pin down the causes of it? My thoughts on "muscle memory"

- If you were successful at training before you stopped (and loss the gains you're trying to get back) then you probably figured out how to train in a manner that will work well for you (intensity, mindset, loading parameters, etc). So you'll do the same next time without wasting time re-learning traits you can only get through experience.

- A significant amount of strength and performance is based on central nervous system function. This can certainly help you recruit more (albeit weaker) muscle after you quit training since you may still have the wiring (so to speak) to perform more complex intermuscular movements with greater proficiency (you remember how to snatch, so you don't waste too much time re-learning the movmement). this MAY be where muscle memory actually lies.

Steroids have very limited effect on the function of the central nervous system if any, so in developing "muscle memory" that way you're unlikely to see any benefit from the juice (either while on or off a cycle). Additionally, steroids allow you to work harder by helping you to recover faster, essentially extending your work capacity beyond that which it is capable of without them... So if THIS is the case, then the habits you form while juicing (essentially the first bullet point in this post) are NOT conducive to regrowing that muscle, only to overtraining.
 
Good post...
I do notice however that after a lay off from lifting weights, having lost size, I put it back on rather quick. Steroids do allow you to go beyond your normal limitations, so would that benefit muscle memory?

I'm not pro or anti steroids, I was thinking more in terms of fighters that juiced up hard and got big, yet could use past use of it as a benefit for future muscle gains.
 
Hypothetically, if you went through a steroid cycle, and bulked up heaps of muscle mass, but then later turned clean, would you have established muscle memory in your body such that having grown to size x you could achieve it later with proper dieting and lifting, at a better chance/rate than if you were to simply bulk clean from the start?

Chaotic chain of thought, but anyway, I was thinking that say for fighters that were HUGE (eg Vitor Belfort) and known to use steroids, having stopped using them, wouldn't their bodies to some extent STILL add muscle mass easier than if they were not to have ever done steroids?


It's funny you should mention this, because I have raised this argument myself with an acquaintance who did a 3 month steroid cycle himself. Though he'd been clean for about 6 months, he hadn't lost any of the 10kg of muscle that he'd packed on. The guy was very defined also, as you could see most of his obliques and the seperation between the glute and ham. He bragged about being 'clean'. I argued that he wasn't because even though the steroids couldn't be having a direct affect any longer, his body was somehow 'remembering' what it had accomplished under the steroids.

It's well known that for most people, the gains with steroids will fade as soon as they stop the drug, but I believe that from a psychological standpoint, if your mind and body have achieved something in the past, then the BELIEF is there that you can achieve it again. Also, if you could bench 300lb without roids and 400lb on them, then even though you probably will drop down to a 300lb bench if you stop taking them, your mind and body knows what it feels like to lift that 400lb, even if it can't do it any longer. This is a huge benefit. This is why I don't like to see convicted drug cheats be allowed to return to sport after serving a ban, e.g Dwain Chambers, who is setting pbs over 60m and who claims to now be clean. If people believe that then they'll believe anything.

I know that most athletes using drugs don't get caught, but because we don't know all the implications of steroid use, such as that posited in your post, then I think mandatory life time bans are absolutely necessary as soon as an athlete is caught. No second chances. These people are adults, they know the rules, so no second chances.
 
Does anybody have any evidence muscle memory even exists? Can they pin down the causes of it? My thoughts on "muscle memory"

.


Some food for thought


https://www.t-nation.com/free_onlin...8F649744CF0F3F8EED2BB104423774.hydra?pageNo=7


''Muscle memory'', or more appropriately the ''plasticity of muscular adaptations'' is very real.

I have often seen it in action first hand with my hockey players. They will often lose up to 10-15lbs of lean body mass (mostly muscle) during a 82 games (around 150-160 days) season. This is due to several factors:

- No time to to anything but some maintenance strength training, and more often than not they skip that part unless they are injured. There are some warriors who do continue their workout regiment, but when you are playing every 2 night, always on the road, living in hotels and practicing every day, it is hard to be consistant.

- Shitty eating habits during the season. As I mentioned, athletes are more often on the road than at home. Heck, even at home they often live in hotels to avoid distractions! So they do not have the luxury of cooking their meals. Most of them thus rely on take-out and even fast-food. Plus, because of their schedule, few of them can eat more than 2-3 meals a day, compared to 6-7 in the off-season (when they do it right).

- Very high cortisol levels. This is both from the practices/games themselves, then mental stress associated with the in-season lifestyle, the pressure of the game, missing their family, and especially plane travels. Furthermore the fact that most hockey games are played at night completely screws up the cortisol pattern (should be high in the morning than taper off in the evening). They actually have elevated cortisol throughout the day and can even suffer from adrenal burnout due to excessive cortisol production demands. If that wasn't enough they often take the plane right after the evening games (at around midnight).

- High cortisol = low testosterone. Both hormones use the same raw material (pregnenolone_. So the more you make of one, the less raw material is available to make the other.

All this creates the scene for the worst possible muscle gaining/muscle maintenance scenario. You are actually in prime muscle wasting shape!!!

Then the off-season comes around and everything changes...

- Your activity level basically drops to zero, that alone ''frees-up'' around 3000-4000 calories per day for growth: take the game and practices out and that's how much calories/energy you are saving pe day. So right off the bat you are in a ''relative'' caloric surplus without even having to change your diet!

- If you are a serious athlete your diet becomes optimal. From 2-3 meals a day of a lot of junk and low protein, it goes to 6-7 meals per day, high protein, high essential fats and adequate carbs. Not to mention optimal peri-workout nutrition.

- From 1-2 weak ass lifting sessions per weak (IF that) you go up to 4-5 high quality ones.

- Cortisol patterns get back to normal... no external stress and no evening cortisol spike. This also means higher testosterone production.

In their cases the first 4-6 weeks of their off-season they are basically complete newbies BUT since muscle that was once had can be regained much more easily, then they just blow up!

I've had my fare share of hockey players gain 15-20lbs in 6 weeks. But I do not mention that fact because to me that is a common thing and it is do to what I mentioned above, not on the superiority of my methods.

A prime example is a player that I trained who went from 165lbs on 6'2'' to 190 in one summer... then dropped down to 170lbs during the season and finished the next off-season at 200. That last off-season it looks like he gained 30lbs of muscle, but in reality it's only 7-10 (which is still very good) since around 20 of it was regained muscle.
 
muscle memory isn't the correct term, but when you gain a lot of muscle your muscle cells will gain new nuclei, which does program you for easier regrowth.
 
Some food for thought


https://www.t-nation.com/free_onlin...8F649744CF0F3F8EED2BB104423774.hydra?pageNo=7


''Muscle memory'', or more appropriately the ''plasticity of muscular adaptations'' is very real.

I have often seen it in action first hand with my hockey players. They will often lose up to 10-15lbs of lean body mass (mostly muscle) during a 82 games (around 150-160 days) season. This is due to several factors:

- No time to to anything but some maintenance strength training, and more often than not they skip that part unless they are injured. There are some warriors who do continue their workout regiment, but when you are playing every 2 night, always on the road, living in hotels and practicing every day, it is hard to be consistant.

- Shitty eating habits during the season. As I mentioned, athletes are more often on the road than at home. Heck, even at home they often live in hotels to avoid distractions! So they do not have the luxury of cooking their meals. Most of them thus rely on take-out and even fast-food. Plus, because of their schedule, few of them can eat more than 2-3 meals a day, compared to 6-7 in the off-season (when they do it right).

- Very high cortisol levels. This is both from the practices/games themselves, then mental stress associated with the in-season lifestyle, the pressure of the game, missing their family, and especially plane travels. Furthermore the fact that most hockey games are played at night completely screws up the cortisol pattern (should be high in the morning than taper off in the evening). They actually have elevated cortisol throughout the day and can even suffer from adrenal burnout due to excessive cortisol production demands. If that wasn't enough they often take the plane right after the evening games (at around midnight).

- High cortisol = low testosterone. Both hormones use the same raw material (pregnenolone_. So the more you make of one, the less raw material is available to make the other.

All this creates the scene for the worst possible muscle gaining/muscle maintenance scenario. You are actually in prime muscle wasting shape!!!

Then the off-season comes around and everything changes...

- Your activity level basically drops to zero, that alone ''frees-up'' around 3000-4000 calories per day for growth: take the game and practices out and that's how much calories/energy you are saving pe day. So right off the bat you are in a ''relative'' caloric surplus without even having to change your diet!

- If you are a serious athlete your diet becomes optimal. From 2-3 meals a day of a lot of junk and low protein, it goes to 6-7 meals per day, high protein, high essential fats and adequate carbs. Not to mention optimal peri-workout nutrition.

- From 1-2 weak ass lifting sessions per weak (IF that) you go up to 4-5 high quality ones.

- Cortisol patterns get back to normal... no external stress and no evening cortisol spike. This also means higher testosterone production.

In their cases the first 4-6 weeks of their off-season they are basically complete newbies BUT since muscle that was once had can be regained much more easily, then they just blow up!

I've had my fare share of hockey players gain 15-20lbs in 6 weeks. But I do not mention that fact because to me that is a common thing and it is do to what I mentioned above, not on the superiority of my methods.

A prime example is a player that I trained who went from 165lbs on 6'2'' to 190 in one summer... then dropped down to 170lbs during the season and finished the next off-season at 200. That last off-season it looks like he gained 30lbs of muscle, but in reality it's only 7-10 (which is still very good) since around 20 of it was regained muscle.

I don't know who you are, or how long you've been on D&S, but you're new to me, and your experience is very refreshing. Welcome aboard!
 
If you retain the muscle for at least 6 months, then yes, it won't be too hard to get it back. Your body sort of acctepts it. If you just wither down and don't have a successful PCT, forgetabout it.
 
I think that there is definitely some sort of "set point" for your bodyweight. It takes effort and extra calories to move either direction from that set point.

When you stay at a weight long enough, you body adapts to it, and it becomes your new "set point".
 
I doubt it's muscle memory, but I think many people keep gains from steroids after they stop using them.
 
I think that there is definitely some sort of "set point" for your bodyweight. It takes effort and extra calories to move either direction from that set point.

When you stay at a weight long enough, you body adapts to it, and it becomes your new "set point".

Yeah i think your quite right there provided your calories stay at a consistent sort of level, your ****bolic rate will partially adapt, but i also think sub consicious you will learn to eat more or less when your at a set weight.
 
if you stop the roids then of course you're gonna lose lots of muscle.
 
you dont think that belforts drop in weight had something to do with a change in diet and workout regimen do you? yeah, it wouldn't surprise me at all if he took roids but common.
 
I think that muscle memory is distinct from strength. It is more gained from repetition.

I believe there is a residual effect left from nervous system connections that are made when a person gets stronger.

So my thoughts are that a large strength gain followed by a large strength loss will result in a greater ability to get strong again, independent of how that strength gained was aided.
 
I think that muscle memory is distinct from strength. It is more gained from repetition.

I believe there is a residual effect left from nervous system connections that are made when a person gets stronger.

So my thoughts are that a large strength gain followed by a large strength loss will result in a greater ability to get strong again, independent of how that strength gained was aided.

You're right. The topic of this thread is actually not muscle memory at all. Te subject of this thread is relevant and does exist, but "muscle memory" is not the correct term.
 
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