Serious nutrition info for vegans?!

Discussion in 'Dieting / Supplement Discussion' started by spiderguardman, Sep 16, 2018.

  1. spiderguardman

    spiderguardman Purple Belt

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    I work as a strength trainer, i have a few vegan clients (yeah i know)
    Im not going to get them to change their ways om afraid.
    So i just have to deal with their cultish ways.

    Trying to find any objective dietary information about vegan diets is not easy. Most stuff is basicly on the level of a religous text and/or pure bullshit.
    Now im aware im not going to get optimal results with these clients, but i like the challenge of trying.
    So does anyone have any books or blogs that have some serious information about making a vegan diet work long term for a lifter?
     
  2. IReallyDoTrainUFC

    IReallyDoTrainUFC Double Yellow Card Double Yellow Card

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    Just because they don't eat meat, doesn't mean they aren't still people. Have respect for their lifestyle. It would be the same if you were training a homosexual client. You must respect his lifestyle, and participate in it.
     
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  3. spiderguardman

    spiderguardman Purple Belt

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    Snowflake much??


    I respect their lifestyle enough to research the best way to deal with their inferior diet.
    I could just take their money and tell them to do whatever.

    I get paid for results not for being a pc cuck.

    Im honest with them and tell them that they are leaving gains on the table by not eating meat.
    Doesnt mean im being disrecpectful.

    Its just facts, Im a no bs person and Im not forcing anyone to train with me. So far noone has had any issues with my way except white knights like you.
     
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  4. Killashaw

    Killashaw Banned Banned

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    https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/protein-for-vegans-vegetarians#section17

    Anybody not recognizing that you can get enough protein on a plant based vegan/vegetarian diet is ignorant.
    Animal proteins are indifferent to plant proteins.
     
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  5. spiderguardman

    spiderguardman Purple Belt

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    Have i even mentioned protein?
    There are bigger issues with vegan diets that im trying to find solutions for. One is decent sources for b vitamins, another is dietary cholesterol.
    Finally Im looking for something that contains the omega3 fatty acids epa and dha.
    These are serious questions i havent found any ansvers for.
    Dont tell me flax seeds, it only contains ala which is far inferior and only about 10% actually converts to the forms we need.
    There are more issues , but these are the big ones Im trying to solve.


    But i guess this proves my point, Im asking serious questions and i get butthurt ansvers from people who get upset by me even asking.
     
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  6. Killashaw

    Killashaw Banned Banned

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    <{Heymansnicker}>

    Stop typing you're embarrasing yourself. Atleast learn some English.
     
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  7. spiderguardman

    spiderguardman Purple Belt

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    My english is fine, however my phone is customized in a different language,
    This is sherdog u know, should have expected some retard hijacking this thread.
     
  8. STRYDG

    STRYDG Orange Belt

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    What a nutsack. Everything he said was perfectly understandable.

    I can't help to be honest, was interested in the read. Could they be talked into eatting eggs? What's the best form of protein powder for veges and vegans? Do any of them contain all the amino acids or you need a variety?

    Was considering pea protein just to mix up with whey/casein. Can anyone confirm if its decent quality?
     
  9. PubliusVentidius

    PubliusVentidius Galore Bofando is the GOAT crew

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    What b vitamins would you lack on a vegan diet? b12 is not necessarily a deficiency of a vegan diet. It's mostly due to sanitation, back in ye olde times people would drink water from rivers and eat stuff with dirt on it and get plenty of b12 as it's produced by bacteria found in soil. Vegans can eat foods fortified with b12 or take a b12 supplement; btw meat eaters technically also eat foods fortified with b12 because animals in factory farming (which is where more than 99% of the meat consumed globally comes from) get supplemented with cobalt since they can't obtain the precursor for b12 naturally as they don't get to do a lot of grazing.
    The ALA in flax seeds is absolutely converted into DHA and EPA, however there are 2 factors that significantly impact the conversion rate = a high intake of omega 6s will drasticly reduce the rate of absorption and you need to ground the seeds, because otherwise it's completely useless and they won't do a thing.
    But even if you don't believe that seeds are enough where do you think fish take their DHA and EPA from? fish cannot make their own DHA and EPA, they get it from algae which is the original source of omega 3s.

    Dietary cholesterol is mostly useless as most of it gets escreted as non-absorbable sterols, besides if you want to raise cholesterol (dunno why anyone would want to do that but ok) you just need to up your fat intake, fats impact endogenous cholesterol synthesis a lot more than dietary cholesterol.
    Keep in mind that raising ldl cholesterol past 100 is actively atherogenic and that the physiological optimal levels where atherosclerosis does not develop are 50 to 70 mg/dl or lower (those are the ldl levels of native hunter-gatherers, healthy human neonates, free-living primates, and other wild mammals; all of whom do not develop atherosclerosis): https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0735109704007168

    Btw I'm not a vegan anymore (I've relapsed into vegetarianism recently mostly due to laziness) and anecdotes are just...anecdotal, but I didn't lose 1 iota of strenght lifting when I was on a vegan diet compared to omnivore or vegetarian.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2018
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  10. supnmunm

    supnmunm Green Belt

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    Just tell them to take a vegan Omega 3 supplement, most omnis I know who lift already take fish oil capsules so what's the difference?
     
  11. ocean size

    ocean size Black Belt

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    You are overthinking this. They can take a b12 supplement. They should have basic nutrition dialed but begans will respond well to L-carnatine and creatine. They are brain boosters as well actually if you don't eat animal products. Trueprotein.com you can make your own powder from a variety of sources or they can get a high quality one off the shelf like sunwarrior
     
  12. Killashaw

    Killashaw Banned Banned

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    <24>
     
  13. spiderguardman

    spiderguardman Purple Belt

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    Got any sources for any of those statements?
    As far as I know about 10% of ala gets converted to epa/dha if lucky.
    Eating dietary cholesterol has nothing to do with serum levels, its the building block for most of our sex hormones, but you knew this already right??

    Im not looking for random statements without sources.
    Again this is my issue with vegans and their claims, its always just claims without any substantial sources.
    I cant take anything at face value since its just anecdotes, i have a lot of hard science why a omnivirous diet works.
    But every time i try to learn from vegans its the same baseless claims.
     
  14. spiderguardman

    spiderguardman Purple Belt

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    So you are saying the vegan diet doesnt work without supplements?
    Im generally curious.
    Cause a natural balanced diet should work without synthetic supplements.
     
  15. ocean size

    ocean size Black Belt

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    The only thing that truly can't be replicated with a vegan diet is the B12. There is some talk about microbes in dirt on the veggies that used to do the job but I've seen some work that suggests that just wouldn't be enough. However hunter gatheres used to eat up to hundreds of grams of fiber a day so they may have gotten enough.

    Everything else is replaceable for most people, with some exceptions, some have polymorphisms that will make converting ala to epa more difficult for example.

    Other minerals and stuff like zinc, iron you need to be really healthy eater getting your greens, seeds, nuts etc you can't just eat vegan twinkies. In that way, veganism is probably less forgiving.

    Regarding the creatine and l-carnitine, neither is necessary, the body makes them, but in both cases giving them to a vegan will slightly boost things like memory. That suggests that the body doesn't produce an optimal level. But everyone can benefit from supplementing with them re: gains.

    I don't mean this in a personal or bad way but I'd get off the high horse with the 'natural balanced diet' kinda thing. No matter what you are making tradeoffs. You probably can't get lower inflammation than a vegan diet for example which is why a lot of athletes start killing right after going plant based. Also your clients aren't doing it for optimal weight training reasons anyway. Meanwhile you probably eat with optimal gains in mind, yet you have room for improvment but no excuse.
     
  16. wufabufa

    wufabufa Brown Belt

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    Pea protein tastes awful, doesn't mix well, and the amount of lectins and phytates in the peas themselves interferes with absorption of other minerals and vitamins. I've tried 4 different brands and they all give me an upset stomach.
     
  17. Icy Mike

    Icy Mike White Belt

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    I was vegan for 10 years and I was a weak little bitch. Now I eat meat and I am a motherfucking monster that can crush people to death. This is objectively true.
     
  18. shunyata

    shunyata Red Belt

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    The biggest thing I see people fail in with veganism is getting enough complete protein.

    That's just for regular daily maintenance they need more for muscle gains.

    If they're eating a huge scramble of sauteed potatoes, onions, garlic, squash, and kale served over a bed of rice and lentils with three different kinds of beans you're probably hitting the protein requirements.


    If these are salad and smoothie vegans, if they're into "raw" food, if they don't like beans and legumes, well then they're fucked.

    I will note, NO POWDERS THEY NEED REAL FOOD.

    Encourage them to have a full hot meal after a strength and conditioning session with lots of beans, rice, etc.


    You can tell them to make a big pot of soup with garbanzo beans, kale, rice, barley, peas, garlic, onion, salt, pepper, serrano chilis, lemon juice at the end, and tell them to eat a big bowl after each session with some avocado toast on the side.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2018
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  19. PubliusVentidius

    PubliusVentidius Galore Bofando is the GOAT crew

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    You seem very confrontational and close minded for no reason, even how you started the thread calling vegans ''cultish'' and railing on the first dude who replied to you as being a ''snowflake white knight cuck'' (sigh); more than being genuinely open on how to optimize the diet of those vegans you train you just seem to be here to trash veganism and being immature but anyway.
    I'm not writing ''random baseless statements'', I'm writing what I know and I have researched. If you want the sources I can provide them but it's not like I'm writing an academic essay and frankly I can't waste my time sourcing everything I state with hyperlinks on a forum every time I write a post.
    You don't need to eat cholesterol as your body produces all the cholesterol it needs, moreover less than half is actually absorbed when you eat it and dietary cholesterol is the type of cholesterol that is most easily oxidized because you cook it, oxidized cholesterol is the worst kind of cholesterol as it's heavily involved in the development of atherosclerosis.

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0956713506001344

    ''COPs (cholesterol oxidation products) have been known to be more injurious to arterial cells than pure cholesterol and are more directly connected to the development of atherosclerosis and coronary heart disease''

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16270280

    ''We hypothesize that diet-derived oxidized fatty acids in chylomicron remnants and oxidized cholesterol in remnants and LDL accelerate atherosclerosis by increasing oxidized lipid levels in circulating LDL and chylomicron remnants. This hypothesis is supported by our feeding experiments in animals. When rabbits were fed oxidized fatty acids or oxidized cholesterol, the fatty streak lesions in the aorta were increased by 100%. Moreover, dietary oxidized cholesterol significantly increased aortic lesions in apo-E and LDL receptor-deficient mice. A typical Western diet is rich in oxidized fats and therefore could contribute to the increased arterial atherosclerosis in our population.''

    Your statement that dietary cholesterol does not raise serum cholesterol is also factually wrong, although it's being parroted around a lot because of a few misleading studies where the baseline cholesterol levels were not physiological and were already high due to a high fat/cholesterol diet, so adding dietary cholesterol to an already high baseline didn't significantly raise cholesterol further because of a diminishing return effect, that has been misconstrued as ''dietary cholesterol doesn't raise serum cholesterol'' which is insane.

    This is from a meta-analysis about the effect of dietary cholesterol on serum cholesterol: ''Serum cholesterol concentration is clearly increased by added dietary cholesterol but the magnitude of predicted change is modulated by baseline dietary cholesterol. The greatest response is expected when baseline dietary cholesterol is near zero, while little, if any, measurable change would be expected once baseline dietary cholesterol was > 400-500 mg/d. People desiring maximal reduction of serum cholesterol by dietary means may have to reduce their dietary cholesterol to minimal levels (< 100-150 mg/d) to observe modest serum cholesterol reductions while persons eating a diet relatively rich in cholesterol would be expected to experience little change in serum cholesterol after adding even large amounts ofcholesterol to their diet. Despite modest average effects of dietary cholesterol, there are some individuals who are much more responsive (and others who are not responsive). Individual degrees of response to dietary cholesterol may be mediated by differences in cholesterol absorption efficiency, neutral sterol excretion, conversion ofhepatic cholesterol to bile acids, or modulation of HMG-CoA reductase or other key enzymes involved in intracellular cholesterol economy, each ultimately resulting in changes of plasma LDL cholesterol con- centration mediated primarily by up- or down-regulation of LDL receptors'' [Paul N Hopkins]

    Besides it's not like you drive your cholesterol numbers up and you end up with more testosterone, it's not that simple, there is no correlation between your total cholesterol numbers and your testosterone levels: https://www.fasebj.org/doi/abs/10.1096/fasebj.24.1_supplement.lb669; you can see in this study that vegans had higher testosterone despite having the lowest cholesterol numbers: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2374537/pdf/83-6691152a.pdf. Again there is no correlation whatsoever.

    And even if you have this misguided idea that people need to have high cholesterol numbers to make gains the best way to achieve that is to eat more lipids (especially saturated fats) not dietary cholesterol as lipids drive cholesterol numbers up more than dietary cholesterol does; there are vegan foods with high saturated fat content (first that comes to mind is coconut which is almost entirely saturated fat) so there's no problem driving your cholesterol numbers up on a vegan diet if someone wishes to do so.


    There is also no evidence that vegans suffer from omega 3s deficiency: https://www.nutraingredients-usa.co...enough-for-EPA-DPA-levels-for-non-fish-eaters

    ''Despite having significantly lower intakes of EPA and DHA (associated with fish consumption), blood levels of EPA and DHA in vegans and vegetarians were approximately the same as regular fish easters, according to findings published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition.
    The results indicate that when people do not consume adequate levels of EPA and DHA, like vegans and non-fish-eating vegetarians, their bodies respond by increasing the conversion levels of ALA to EPA''.

    https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/92/5/1040/4597496


    TLDR: if a vegan diet works for the best american weight lifter in the world (Kendrick Farris) it can work for your clients as well, stop overcomplicating things.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2018
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  20. PubliusVentidius

    PubliusVentidius Galore Bofando is the GOAT crew

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    You forgot seeds, 100 grams of pumpkin seeds have more proteins, zinc and iron than 100 grams of eggs, for example.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2018
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