Secret Societies

[Mr. Smith]

Originally posted by The Jake
I concur... thankfully though due to the popularity of Scientology they have risen so quickly that they haven't escapted noticed and they're being readily investigated and their exploits discussed and documented almost as rapidly as the Freemasons.

At least Freemasonry comes across as an innocent old men's fraternity (at least at the lower levels), where as Scientology is, even if it is not a conspiracy, potentially more damaging as members drag their family members in the messy crackpot religion that it is.

You won't read about kids being deprived of books, starved and worse in Freemason's meetings.

Although Freemasonry I tend to align with the Illuminati in terms of an organisation shrouded in mystery and steeped in ritual and tradition.... (anyone ever seen their wierd handshakes? Particularly the higher level Freemasons?? EGADS...).

- The Jake

the illuminati....

now there's a comment with a lot of potential contoversy

seriously, though, i agree - i don't like scientology - it's wacked out, even by the standards of some of the shit i've read. as far as i'm concerned, it's a cult, not a secret society (there is a distinction), and, as so, is much more volatile and potentially explosive (waco, TX, anybody?).

turning to masonry / illuminati. hmmmmm

i'm not sure the illuminati actually exist. i tend more towards the viewpoint that they are a manifestation of everyone's misconceptions, fluctuating ideas and rumours about a variety of societies. there's elements of masonry, the templars, cathars, thule society and a load of other shit. makes it seem more like a hodgepodge of stuff, rather than a coherent single entity. still, as a SECRET society, we can't rule their existance out.

if they exist, i reckon they're so firmly entrenched in the power structure that looking for them would be both impossible and futile.

slightly off-topic, the triad societies of china (before they got all criminal) and the Hashishyun (sp?) or Assassins of the middle east are also cool to study, if anyone's interested

 

[The Jake]

Secret societies and subversive movements used to be a topic of particularly strong interest to me... been awhile since I read up on it but there's a reason I left it alone (as I outlined above). It can get to you, if you let it.

- The Jake

 

[Mr. Smith]

Originally posted by The Jake
Secret societies and subversive movements used to be a topic of particularly strong interest to me... been awhile since I read up on it but there's a reason I left it alone (as I outlined above). It can get to you, if you let it.

- The Jake

i agree - it can. it certainly did when i was younger. now, i adopt the view that if they have so much power, it's use is already evident, and i should be accustomed to its effects. plus, avoiding the blatantly crackpot authors is helpful - cos it's those bastards with their immense conspiracy theories that really fock with your head

 

[The Jake]

Originally posted by The Smithmeister
the illuminati....

now there's a comment with a lot of potential contoversy

seriously, though, i agree - i don't like scientology - it's wacked out, even by the standards of some of the shit i've read. as far as i'm concerned, it's a cult, not a secret society (there is a distinction), and, as so, is much more volatile and potentially explosive (waco, TX, anybody?).

I suppose a cult really is a better term for it. Although I haven't sat down to start comparing dictionary definitions just yet....

I'll leave that to others with more time than myself....

turning to masonry / illuminati. hmmmmm

i'm not sure the illuminati actually exist. i tend more towards the viewpoint that they are a manifestation of everyone's misconceptions, fluctuating ideas and rumours about a variety of societies. there's elements of masonry, the templars, cathars, thule society and a load of other shit. makes it seem more like a hodgepodge of stuff, rather than a coherent single entity. still, as a SECRET society, we can't rule their existance out.

Their origins are well documented. Between Adam Weishaupt and guys like Ben Franklin, America was basically built by guys who were running up their own private club with their own private agenda.

They may, may not exist now, but there was definately a time where they did. Part of my pet theories is that it may have evolved into Freemasonry, or at the very least Freemasonry may be a front for the Illuminati.

if they exist, i reckon they're so firmly entrenched in the power structure that looking for them would be both impossible and futile.

One word: fnord.

slightly off-topic, the triad societies of china (before they got all criminal) and the Hashishyun (sp?) or Assassins of the middle east are also cool to study, if anyone's interested

I was waiting for someone to mention these....

- The Jake

 

[Mr. Smith]

Originally posted by The Jake
Their origins are well documented. Between Adam Weishaupt and guys like Ben Franklin, America was basically built by guys who were running up their own private club with their own private agenda.

They may, may not exist now, but there was definately a time where they did. Part of my pet theories is that it may have evolved into Freemasonry, or at the very least Freemasonry may be a front for the Illuminati.

hmmm.... you make a good point about weishaupt.

and the whole revolutionary government being involved is possible, even likely (i'd tend to say they adopted the existing and possibly deceased illuminati movement for their own ends)
this makes sense from a purely logical point of view - they were arguably the most hated men in the most powerful nation at the time (that's the UK, gawd bless 'er). forming a secret enclave at the heart of their council would have given then the opportunity to avoid betrayal to a certain extent (in theory, at least), as well as to ensure succession following certain rules, that may not have been able to be drafted in the official documents (NOT a criticism of the Constiution)

still, i struggle with the idea that if it exists, an entity as powerful as the illuminati are supposed to be, allowed evidence of a) their existance and b) their origins to be revealed. seems more likely that this is a convenient cover, possibly using weishaupt's earlier movement as a distraction. also, illuminati merely means the people of the light, or the enlightened ones - it's not an exclusive term.

i emphasise that i tend towards not believing in the illuminati, and that these are just ideas, not necessarily my own.

 

[The Jake]

Smithmeister -

The devil's cleverest ploy was to persuade the world he doesn't exist.

Let's pretend and say for instance that vampires are real.

What better way than for people to disbelieve their existence than by publishing a fictious novel which has become legendary within the annals of movie and literature history (I'm talking Bram Stoker's Dracula of course)? Nobody is going to believe a fictitious novel is based on fact are they?

Could quite easily be done.

Stan Deyo basically argued the above scenario when describing how the secret goverment will take over by basically stating that the current trend of books and literature with regard to the paranormal and to extra terrestrial life is shaping public perception and that's how they're going to take over.

Not stating I believe this necessarily only that it raises interesting possibilities how a secret government could easily instilled into power through subtle manipulation of the information which shapes public opinion.

The easiest way to hide from something is in PLAIN SIGHT. Much like when you misplace your car keys if you know what I mean.... it's right there, right where you left them, you just can't find them....

What do I think the Illuminati are?

I believe that the Illuminati most assuredly existed at some point although whether or not is around now is anyone's guess. Some organisations evolve over time, employ different public faces, change names, have multiple layers and fronts, and so on. I believe that the Illuminati at the very least would had to have evolved in order to survive. It could quite easily exist... I mean it would have had several hundred years to evolve. Much like the Freemasons. If they still exist, we are all in deep shit.

- The Jake

 

[Mr. Smith]

jake -

you make some damn good points, but i still disagree with you on the 'hiding in plain sight' line.

i can understand how broadcasting the existance of one secret government would conceal the real one, but surely, it would also make people more wary and place them on the lookout, threatening the security of the real hidden governement. the shaping of perceptions argument works both ways.

i agree it's entirely possible to come to power by controlling what people know, and that it's arguably the best way to maintain power, but those facts are disparate from the problems of people knwoing about the illuminati - obviously, we could go into the bluff, double bluff or triple bluff consideration here, but that would be irrelevant and pointless. short fact is that we can never know whether the illuminati exist, nor what their true form is. if, indeed, they control public knowledge through whatever means, then, in the words of weird al yankovic - "everything you know is wrong".

also, i agree with your many levels argument. that would seem to be inevitable, given the nature of secret societies. however, i take issue with the comment that we're all in deep shit. this is not necessarily true. i don't know about you, but i reckon the governments of the modern developed world do, all in all, a pretty decent job. if, indeed, they are controlled at some level by the illuminati or a similar group, then i'd say the illuminati are a good thing. as much as i despise the idea that we are acting towards an unknown personal aim, i think that it could be morally justifiable to a degree to secretly control a government, even if it was for personal gain, so long as that quest does not interfere with the general good of the people. this is a slightly weird argument, but it's based on good utilitarian principles - the best thing to do is that which provides most happiness - if the illuminati or whoever provide this, then they are acting for the best. it's if they act for their own goals ABOVE the good of the people that we're screwed. obviously if they control what we know, this argument is severely flawed. also, assuming the majority of the major world powers are involved in this conspiracy, then we have an alliance above and beyond any granted by the UN, NATO, NAFTA or any other acronym. this can only be in the interests of the greatest good.

what i guess i'm trying to say is that the personal goals of the few do not necessarily contradict the good of the masses. all too often they do, or seem to, but, by your own hide in plain sight argument - the contradicitons could hide the real synchronity.

 

[Mr. Smith]

jake -

There should be a police state where religion is outlawed, this flawed democracy system scrapped, replaced under the rule of a benevolent dictator (if there is such a thing) and the people led into a better life. One leader, a people united, no religion.

just read this in your religion fact or fiction post.

sounds very much like an illuminati-esque system

police state - fundamental means of control?
benevolent dictator - illuminati?
one leader - ditto
no religion - just the illuminati, no rivals?

sorry mate, but it was too good to pass up

 

[The Jake]

Smithmeister-

you make some damn good points, but i still disagree with you on the 'hiding in plain sight' line.

The Freemasons are a group in and by themselves who hide in plain sight. How the hell can you say it's not possible???

i can understand how broadcasting the existance of one secret government would conceal the real one, but surely, it would also make people more wary and place them on the lookout, threatening the security of the real hidden governement. the shaping of perceptions argument works both ways.

I don't believe the door swings both ways in this argument.

Whoever is disseminating the information is in control. Books, newspapers, radio, television, Internet, all the information we absorb from all it's sources. We then interact with other people who also accumulate information from different sources. By being saturated by all this information and interacting with others in the same position we become conditioned to believe what we see and hear. We can't help it. It's natural.

Whoever is in a position to control the flow of that information shapes what we see and hear. People might gain an open eye to events around them and question the source of the information but the person who controls that will ultimately maintain power over the situation.

If Joe Bloe finds out the Illuminati are real who is he going to tell? Who is going to believe him? And if by some chance someone believe's Joe's story, what do you think is going to happen?? Joe's reality doesn't conform to consensus reality. Why? Because the person controlling the flow of information controls what is consensus and what is not.

obviously if they control what we know, this argument is severely flawed. also, assuming the majority of the major world powers are involved in this conspiracy, then we have an alliance above and beyond any granted by the UN, NATO, NAFTA or any other acronym. this can only be in the interests of the greatest good.

You obviously have far greater faith in humanity than I do...

Working on the big fat presumption that the Illuminati do exist I do not believe the pull all the strings. I don't believe any secret society does or could claim to. The problem with subversive movements is not that thtey could but they have enough power and influence to be able to SHAPE the course of history and our destiny, although not necessarily control it directly. The possibility of any one group could have such power and use it without consequence or without proper government is wrong.

also, i agree with your many levels argument. that would seem to be inevitable, given the nature of secret societies. however, i take issue with the comment that we're all in deep shit. this is not necessarily true. i don't know about you, but i reckon the governments of the modern developed world do, all in all, a pretty decent job. if, indeed, they are controlled at some level by the illuminati or a similar group, then i'd say the illuminati are a good thing. as much as i despise the idea that we are acting towards an unknown personal aim, i think that it could be morally justifiable to a degree to secretly control a government, even if it was for personal gain, so long as that quest does not interfere with the general good of the people. this is a slightly weird argument, but it's based on good utilitarian principles - the best thing to do is that which provides most happiness - if the illuminati or whoever provide this, then they are acting for the best. it's if they act for their own goals ABOVE the good of the people that we're screwed.

That, in addition to the above quote, is a very, very big supposition...

Due to the inherent nature of a subversive movement, we do not know who the players are. Hence we have to assume that they do not have the best interests of everyone at heart - else why would they be subversive? (that in itself raises many points and is probably flawed but it is the strongest argument I can think of for why a group would wish to remain subversive).

I for one am not comfortable with anyone having that much power. Particularly when there they are invisible and have no (true) democratic process or accountability.

what i guess i'm trying to say is that the personal goals of the few do not necessarily contradict the good of the masses. all too often they do, or seem to, but, by your own hide in plain sight argument - the contradicitons could hide the real synchronity.

I think we're confusing the issue here.

I see the motives of a secret society as being seperate to how they could remain over time.

- The Jake

 

[The Jake]

Originally posted by The Smithmeister
jake -

There should be a police state where religion is outlawed, this flawed democracy system scrapped, replaced under the rule of a benevolent dictator (if there is such a thing) and the people led into a better life. One leader, a people united, no religion.

just read this in your religion fact or fiction post.

sounds very much like an illuminati-esque system

police state - fundamental means of control?
benevolent dictator - illuminati?
one leader - ditto
no religion - just the illuminati, no rivals?

sorry mate, but it was too good to pass up

You focker... I said I was bouncing around ideas in that other thread.... don't take me out of context!

At least under a dictatorship it's out in the open under public scrutiny. Big difference between that and a subversive movement dude....

- The Jake

 

[Mr. Smith]

Originally posted by The Jake

The Freemasons are a group in and by themselves who hide in plain sight. How the hell can you say it's not possible???

i meant this in relation to the illuminati and other major powers, if they really exist.


[/B][/QUOTE]I don't believe the door swings both ways in this argument.

Whoever is disseminating the information is in control. Books, newspapers, radio, television, Internet, all the information we absorb from all it's sources. We then interact with other people who also accumulate information from different sources. By being saturated by all this information and interacting with others in the same position we become conditioned to believe what we see and hear. We can't help it. It's natural.

Whoever is in a position to control the flow of that information shapes what we see and hear. People might gain an open eye to events around them and question the source of the information but the person who controls that will ultimately maintain power over the situation.

If Joe Bloe finds out the Illuminati are real who is he going to tell? Who is going to believe him? And if by some chance someone believe's Joe's story, what do you think is going to happen?? Joe's reality doesn't conform to consensus reality. Why? Because the person controlling the flow of information controls what is consensus and what is not. [/B][/QUOTE]

ok, i'm ready to cede you this argument.



[/B][/QUOTE]You obviously have far greater faith in humanity than I do... [/B][/QUOTE]

yes. yes, i do.

[/B][/QUOTE]Working on the big fat presumption that the Illuminati do exist I do not believe the pull all the strings. I don't believe any secret society does or could claim to. The problem with subversive movements is not that thtey could but they have enough power and influence to be able to SHAPE the course of history and our destiny, although not necessarily control it directly. The possibility of any one group could have such power and use it without consequence or without proper government is wrong.

That, in addition to the above quote, is a very, very big supposition... [/B][/QUOTE]

these are all major suppositions - we're talking about control over nations - all suppositions will be huge. i'm playing devil's advocate as much as you here, just throwing ideas around, not necessarily my own.

[/B][/QUOTE]Due to the inherent nature of a subversive movement, we do not know who the players are. Hence we have to assume that they do not have the best interests of everyone at heart - else why would they be subversive? (that in itself raises many points and is probably flawed but it is the strongest argument I can think of for why a group would wish to remain subversive). [/B][/QUOTE]

good point, and i generally agree, but i didn't mean that was their principal aim. what i meant was that the two could go together.

[/B][/QUOTE]I for one am not comfortable with anyone having that much power. Particularly when there they are invisible and have no (true) democratic process or accountability. [/B][/QUOTE]

i'm with you on that one!!

[/B][/QUOTE]I think we're confusing the issue here.

I see the motives of a secret society as being seperate to how they could remain over time. [/B][/QUOTE]

just diversifying the argument. plus, surely motivation dictates how any group exists, succeeds or is destroyed?

 

[Mr. Smith]

Originally posted by The Jake


You focker... I said I was bouncing around ideas in that other thread.... don't take me out of context!

At least under a dictatorship it's out in the open under public scrutiny. Big difference between that and a subversive movement dude....

- The Jake

yeah, sorry bout that one, i was just kidding around

 

[The Jake]

Originally posted by The Smithmeister
just diversifying the argument. plus, surely motivation dictates how any group exists, succeeds or is destroyed?

Oooh.... good one.

Yes. In agreement here.... (I'll quit copying and pasting since you've conceded on just about all other points).

This is why public fronts and multiple layers within a conspiratorial group is almost mandatory. To sort out the wheat from the chaff so to speak. Find out who is real material for the inner layers and who is not. It's the best way (IMHO).

Not unlike how many intelligence agencies would recruit clandestine operatives I would imagine.... at a guess that is.

- The Jake

 

[The Jake]

Originally posted by The Smithmeister


yeah, sorry bout that one, i was just kidding around

That's kewl. I know you were

- The Jake

 

[Squatdog]

Ultimately, the spread of disinformation and the suppression of new technologys can be solely attributed to one group:

The Stone Cutters.

 

[The Jake]

Originally posted by Squatdog
Ultimately, the spread of disinformation and the suppression of new technologys can be solely attributed to one group:

The Stone Cutters.

WHO HOLDS BACK THE ELECTRIC CAR?
WHO MADE STEVE GUTTENBERG A STAR??

WE DO... WE DO....

- The Jake

 

[Mr. Smith]

if anyone has an mp3 or something of that stonecutters song, i'd me most grateful

 

[The Jake]

- The Jake

 

[bob]

this is seriously focking with my head..ive heard about these secret societies and shit that have liike all these importnat ppl in there lie judges and shit so that they basiclly cant be touched and can do what ever they please. it fucking scares me an i always hear storys and shit from my mum about em and i tell ya it makes you fully anelize everything that happens around you.

i know i shouldnt have read this thread im not gunna be able to sleep tonight.

 

[Mr. Smith]

LOL @ the cartoon!!

it's funny cos it's true (or is that just what they want us to believe?)