Seattle passes minimum wage of $15.

[ChainFlow]

Call it what you will.

It just seems emotional rather than logical to me and I wish more people could step back from the first gut reaction and consider.

"Other people having more money doesn't hurt me" is something that a lot of folks who had your reaction say about billionaire financiers (who went on to destroy our economy) but why is it different when it's people "below" you on the social ladder?

I make a lot more than this proposed wage and I think that something like this is long overdue. (For one thing, it'd push up wages a little for everyone in a ripple effect, diminishing the more they were paid to begin with).

When companies like mcdonalds and walmart publish guides to their employees telling them how to apply for food stamps and rent assistance, that tells me that they're gleefully passing on the costs of the labor they are purchasing to the tax payer. I'm tired of helping to subsidize them.

There might be a better way to go about it (tax big companies directly proportionate to how many employees receive welfare funds?) but this at least gets the conversation started.

 

[Bukowski82]

It just seems emotional rather than logical to me and I wish more people could step back from the first gut reaction and consider.

"Other people having more money doesn't hurt me" is something that a lot of folks who had your reaction say about billionaire financiers (who went on to destroy our economy) but why is it different when it's people "below" you on the social ladder?

I make a lot more than this proposed wage and I think that something like this is long overdue. (For one thing, it'd push up wages a little for everyone in a ripple effect, diminishing the more they were paid to begin with).

When companies like mcdonalds and walmart publish guides to their employees telling them how to apply for food stamps and rent assistance, that tells me that they're gleefully passing on the costs of the labor they are purchasing to the tax payer. I'm tired of helping to subsidize them.

There might be a better way to go about it (tax big companies directly proportionate to how many employees receive welfare funds?) but this at least gets the conversation started.

I could not have worded my support more clearly if I'd tried... Well done.

 

[Timetravel_0]

What do these two facts have to do with each other?

Correlation != causation... Much more likely that Santa Fe's prosperity causes both its high COL and the populace voted to raise the min wage in an attempt to partially offset this.

Unless you think that enough minimum wage workers live in SFe to by themselves shoot the cost of living that high. That their purchasing power was enough to disrupt the pricing of that entire economy, displacing all those middle classed folks you mention. And that they all somehow live in this super expensive area..?

Sheesh, the absurd arguments against MW never cease.

It's also due to the Walmart worker that would rather travel and make $12/hr in Santa Fe than $8/hr in Rio Rancho.

 

[shera]

It

 

[Tigerknee]

It just seems emotional rather than logical to me and I wish more people could step back from the first gut reaction and consider.

"Other people having more money doesn't hurt me" is something that a lot of folks who had your reaction say about billionaire financiers (who went on to destroy our economy) but why is it different when it's people "below" you on the social ladder?

I make a lot more than this proposed wage and I think that something like this is long overdue. (For one thing, it'd push up wages a little for everyone in a ripple effect, diminishing the more they were paid to begin with).

When companies like mcdonalds and walmart publish guides to their employees telling them how to apply for food stamps and rent assistance, that tells me that they're gleefully passing on the costs of the labor they are purchasing to the tax payer. I'm tired of helping to subsidize them.

There might be a better way to go about it (tax big companies directly proportionate to how many employees receive welfare funds?) but this at least gets the conversation started.

Do you understand how inflation works?

When people have more money, they will demand more goods, they demand more goods prices go up for everyone. Even those who didn't get a raise " middle class"

 

[ExquisitExamplE]

At least, according to Adam Smith author of Wealth of Nations, father of modern day capitalism.

Although he may be the founder, I think it was Keynes that had the greatest effect on America's own economic policies, and the reason why you can't realistically call this country (USA) a democracy anymore, nor can one call it a truly capitalist society or even a free-market society. We're much closer to an oligarchy or perhaps a corpocracy if you wish.

Either way, the Keynesian system of economics is heavily flawed (although not without certain merits), which is one of the primary reasons why we're seeing this ever widening gap between the hyper-rich and the ultra-poor. Add in to that horrific ideas like "trickle-down economics", which is largely influenced by Keynesian thought in the first place, and you have a recipe for disaster of epic proportions.

Personally, I am a big proponent of Austrian economics, as I think their system is more well developed and has a better grasp on the dynamics of trade vis-a-vis human nature overall.

As an example, here are two different ways that these schools deal with a recession.

Keynesian school

 

[ChainFlow]

It

 

[ChainFlow]

Do you understand how inflation works?

When people have more money, they will demand more goods, they demand more goods prices go up for everyone. Even those who didn't get a raise " middle class"

Of course I understand inflation. I don't believe you do, as you've left out a few key points:

You haven't proven that the price of all goods is somehow a constant function of the minimum wage... No one has. That's because it isn't.

Prices will rise slightly (see my above post) but increasing demand ONLY leads to inflation in a demand-saturated economy! The US is currently demand-starved. Increasing the amount of purchasing going on will only help it.

You also seem to assume that these increaed wages will come ex nihilo. That's absurd. They're coming from decreased profit margins. The government isn't printing more money and handing it to people (that privilege is reserved for billion dollar banks). The money is just going to a different place than it otherwise would have.

Basically.. "But inflation will mean we will be back where we started!" Is absolutely bunk on pretty much every level. It assumes a lot of things that are NEVER true and also assumes things that are especially not true in our current economy.

 

[Tigerknee]

Of course I understand inflation. I don't believe you do, as you've left out a few key points:

You haven't proven that the price of all goods is somehow a constant function of the minimum wage... No one has. That's because it isn't.

Prices will rise slightly (see my above post) but increasing demand ONLY leads to inflation in a demand-saturated economy! The US is currently demand-starved. Increasing the amount of purchasing going on will only help it.

You also seem to assume that these increaed wages will come ex nihilo. That's absurd. They're coming from decreased profit margins. The government isn't printing more money and handing it to people (that privilege is reserved for billion dollar banks). The money is just going to a different place than it otherwise would have.

Basically.. "But inflation will mean we will be back where we started!" Is absolutely bunk on pretty much every level. It assumes a lot of things that are NEVER true and also assumes things that are especially not true in our current economy.

Who said prices were based on minimum wage?????? Increased demand causes increased prices regardless of what minimum wage is

 

[AGGAMEMNON66]

It just seems emotional rather than logical to me and I wish more people could step back from the first gut reaction and consider.

"Other people having more money doesn't hurt me" is something that a lot of folks who had your reaction say about billionaire financiers (who went on to destroy our economy) but why is it different when it's people "below" you on the social ladder?

I make a lot more than this proposed wage and I think that something like this is long overdue. (For one thing, it'd push up wages a little for everyone in a ripple effect, diminishing the more they were paid to begin with).

When companies like mcdonalds and walmart publish guides to their employees telling them how to apply for food stamps and rent assistance, that tells me that they're gleefully passing on the costs of the labor they are purchasing to the tax payer. I'm tired of helping to subsidize them.

There might be a better way to go about it (tax big companies directly proportionate to how many employees receive welfare funds?) but this at least gets the conversation started.

It's a slap in the face to everyone that worked their way beyond that minimum wage. That's another part of what he is saying. Imagine being a skilled laborer that worked for years to learn a trade that makes 15$ an hour, now imagine after all that someone that has never worked a day in their life gets their very 1st job ever and BAM day 1 they are making the same amount as the guy that worked his way up the latter.

Shit, why not make everyone in the country millionaires by this way of logic, you know, more money for the economy is a good thing, right?

 

[ExquisitExamplE]

It's a slap in the face to everyone that worked their way beyond that minimum wage. That's another part of what he is saying. Imagine being a skilled laborer that worked for years to learn a trade that makes 15$ an hour, now imagine after all that someone that has never worked a day in their life gets their very 1st job ever and BAM day 1 they are making the same amount as the guy that worked his way up the latter.

And why is that a bad thing? I'd be happy that someone didn't have to go through the hardships I had to. This is another facet of this culture of competition that for some reason is cultivated so heavily in America; you end up with people who are bitter and disenfranchised, and rather than directing their anger in the appropriate direction, they do the opposite, and direct it towards other equally disenfranchised social groups.

I think this quote speaks to my point-

In fact, I have more in common with most working and middle-class white people than I do with most rich black and Latino people. As much as racism bleeds America, we need to understand that classism is the real issue. Many of us are in the same boat and it's sinking, while these bougie Motherfuckers ride on a luxury liner, and as long as we keep fighting over kicking people out of the little boat we're all in, we're gonna miss an opportunity to gain a better standard of living as a whole. -Immortal Technique

 

[Scrody]

I am not a fan. Fast food jobs are not a career, and they shouldn't be viewed as a career option. Same with servers, bartenders etc. It can be a hard job yes, but writing down what someone wants to eat or drink doesn't warrant 15 dollars an hour. That's what tips are for.

 

[Pupi]

Although he may be the founder, I think it was Keynes that had the greatest effect on America's own economic policies, and the reason why you can't realistically call this country (USA) a democracy anymore, nor can one call it a truly capitalist society or even a free-market society. We're much closer to an oligarchy or perhaps a corpocracy if you wish.

Either way, the Keynesian system of economics is heavily flawed (although not without certain merits), which is one of the primary reasons why we're seeing this ever widening gap between the hyper-rich and the ultra-poor. Add in to that horrific ideas like "trickle-down economics", which is largely influenced by Keynesian thought in the first place, and you have a recipe for disaster of epic proportions.

Personally, I am a big proponent of Austrian economics, as I think their system is more well developed and has a better grasp on the dynamics of trade vis-a-vis human nature overall.

As an example, here are two different ways that these schools deal with a recession.





So essentially, you have Keynesian economics to thank for "Too-Big-To-Fail" banks and the bailouts, which really did nothing more than apply a band-aid to America's already gaping fiscal cannon wound.

That said, I'm not too worried, as I'm sure many of you have heard the adage, "All roads lead to Rome", and while that adage typically means that you can take different paths to get to the same destination, I think it's important to remember the history of Rome in this context, as in, "The fall of".

You are talking about a macro sense of economics in regards to Keynes. Doing the little reading about Keynes through wiki, I noticed that his school of thought was heavily influenced by Malthus, one of the guys that I mentioned in my previous post. And Keynes sought to oppose Ricardo, the gloom and doom classical economist I previously mentioned, as well.

I read some criticisms on wiki regarding Keynes and his model of economics. The last sentence seems just about right and perfectly explains Americas situation right now:

The implicit assumption underlying the Keynesian fiscal revolution was that economic policy would be made by wise men, acting without regard to political pressures or opportunities, and guided by disinterested economic technocrats. They argued that this was an unrealistic assumption about political, bureaucratic and electoral behavior.

 

[GrindingANARCHY]

So I could work at Burger King in Seatle and make $15 a hour lol

 

[dirtypablo]

And why is that a bad thing? I'd be happy that someone didn't have to go through the hardships I had to. This is another facet of this culture of competition that for some reason is cultivated so heavily in America; you end up with people who are bitter and disenfranchised, and rather than directing their anger in the appropriate direction, they do the opposite, and direct it towards other equally disenfranchised social groups.

I think this quote speaks to my point-

Its a bad thing because it gets rid of the incentive to work harder or learn a valuable skill. I can pay a bunch of money and bust my ass learning some skill and be able to make 15/hour doing something difficult, or I can skip that and start making 15/hour at a job that takes no effort. Which are you gonna choose?

 

[ChainFlow]

Who said prices were based on minimum wage?????? Increased demand causes increased prices regardless of what minimum wage is

Didn't you read my post? Was it too complicated? Demand and pricing are not 1:1 especially when demand is below optimum levels.

It's a slap in the face to everyone that worked their way beyond that minimum wage. That's another part of what he is saying. Imagine being a skilled laborer that worked for years to learn a trade that makes 15$ an hour, now imagine after all that someone that has never worked a day in their life gets their very 1st job ever and BAM day 1 they are making the same amount as the guy that worked his way up the latter.

Shit, why not make everyone in the country millionaires by this way of logic, you know, more money for the economy is a good thing, right?

1st part: I know it provokes an emotional reaction but it's ultimately unreasonable. Them having more doesn't automatically hurt you. It's really that simple.

Plus the more skilled guys would get a raise or be able to find another job paying somewhat more (though not 1:1 proportionate with the raise).

2nd: this is a tired, old, and frankly dumb argument that no one ever is making. It's the equivalent of screaming at gun rights advocates "why don't you just give everyone nukes?!"

Also: No one is saying that magically making money will fix anything. The increased wages are not coming out of nowhere. The government is not just printing money. It's ending up in different places than it currently does, that's all.

And you did not address my comments about government subsidizing cheap labor at all.

 

[Merlotte's]

It'll be up to seven years before smaller businesses need to comply. By then our dollar won't be worth as much. This is a good thing.

Can still see people being laid off. Though every small business owner I know drives several luxury cars and so do their children. Have nice homes as well. So they can complain all they want about being strapped I don't believe it.

 

[ExquisitExamplE]

You are talking about a macro sense of economics in regards to Keynes.

Yes, quite.

I read some criticisms on wiki regarding Keynes and his model of economics. The last sentence seems just about right and perfectly explains Americas situation right now:

Yes, this is more or less the point we're at now, although we've been on that path for quite some time now, the major tipping point (although certainly not the first), was the institution of the Federal Reserve System in 1913; Once the people lost control of our currency, it was only a matter of time before things developed into this horrific dog-eat-dog, Wolf of Wallstreet version of America that has strayed so very far from what was intended.

 

[AdamL]

So I could work at Burger King in Seatle and make $15 a hour lol

Assuming you get the job when there will be people with college degrees applying for the same position. Assuming BK stays in business after being forced to raise prices.

This whole thread is filled with socialist, liberal flowery thinking. I have really, really grown tired and angry reading about their fantasies. This is only going to end in one way, and that's bad. In one fell swoop a bunch of morons have eliminated small businesses with the Seattle city limits and forced prices to go up for everything, as well as make unrealistic incentives for people to move into the area, who will only wind up unemployed as demand for positions will be non-existent.

Good job, morons.

 

[ChainFlow]

Its a bad thing because it gets rid of the incentive to work harder or learn a valuable skill. I can pay a bunch of money and bust my ass learning some skill and be able to make 15/hour doing something difficult, or I can skip that and start making 15/hour at a job that takes no effort. Which are you gonna choose?

The skilled jobs won't pay 15/hr if min wage is 15. If they currently pay 15 they'll pay 17.50 or 20 (pulled out of ass estimate).

Plus, making people starve to make them "better their lot" sounds kinda... Weird?

And again, the minimum wage people are often being paid much more than 7.75. It's just that the taxpayer is paying a bunch of it on top of the employer.

There's a hard floor to wage price and that's what the employee can live off of. It doesn't matter if I don't think a car is worth any more than 10,000$ - if it costs 9,000$ to make then you won't see it for less than 9000$.