Economy Schumer-Manchin bill has $45.6 billion to audit the middle class

[Islam Imamate]

There's no way in hell this is right. Do you understand how much rent is in CA?
I paid my guys 25hr flat rate. Not sure if you're familiar with flat rate but it's what book pays per hr.
My wife as a retail manager made 110k. Theres no one that we know in CA that makes less than 80k a year right now. That's per person.
I dont know where they're getting this 70 plus k for two earners but it's not possible in CA.
Average rent in Roseville is 3k a month. That's nor cal, not even so cal. Look at the prices there. It's not possible.

First off, ~$35k is individual income and most individuals pool their income into households and typically two income ones, hence the median household income being roughly twice the individual one. If you've never met such a person that doesn't mean they don't exist, in fact its perfectly predictable that if your wife makes roughly three times the median income that she'd be in a a class distinct from people that made only a fraction of what she made. Part of this is age; lots of young people don't make as much money because they are not as educated and experienced.

But you are right, in some cases these income levels just aren't enough. Hence California has the highest rate of employed homeless people. There are people with jobs in Cali that have to couch surf or sleep at shelters. Imagine working a full day's work and "coming home" to a shelter, yikes.

I think you underestimate how expensive it is to live in metro California, especially for young families. There is also a lot of nuance to income because it is only part of total compensation not to mention each family situation have different assets/debt, circumstances, expectations and location matters. My point is that $200k is not upper-middle class in metro California although for families with significant assets and established can live comfortably in many affordable areas. It's the younger families with more debt then assets that are trying to be first time homebuyers and trying to build wealth who are struggling, even making $200k/year.

I'm not underestimating it, I posted numbers earlier which showed that the only two cities where $200k isn't enough to afford a home are in California(San Jose, San Fran).

Right now my friend is in Cali for work and he tells me about it, its insane. He's fine because he works in tech making six figures so he's apart of the modern priestly caste that gets to live well in these cities. That's kind of my point, he has individual income less than $200k and he lives just fine. In fairness he doesn't live in San Fran proper which is the pinnacle of high living costs but where he lives ain't cheap either, just a stone's throw away.

Part of my argument is that even if you have less material wealth in terms of something like sqft in your home, you're paying for the value of living in that iconic city and hence that's why your home is much more valuable.

There are massive homes in states like North Carolina that you could buy with a fraction of the cost you'd get a small home in San Fran but people want to live in San Fran, not rural Appalachia. California has a world university system, a hub of tech and cinema, world class cultural institutions, just an all around dynamic state that comes with many benefits if you're willing to pay for the high cost.

If you make $200k and are scraping by, you're living beyond your means and maybe its because you want to live in the awesome mega-cities of California for all those benefits and of course I sympathize. Notice that when people leave Cali due to high costs, they're not moving to rural bumfuck states where they could buy a 50 acre landed estate with the value of their modest single family home in California. They want to move to other states that have dynamic economics and global cities like Texas and Florida. As a Florida bro I welcome Cali bros looking for lower housing costs and escape from communist tyranny. We have Disneyland, the Everglades, and Miami, what's not to like?

You’re both proving my point.

Go back to 1960. John down the street who worked in town, owned a Buick, had a cabin in the poconos and sent his son to college was not “rich”. Inflation has destroyed everything and now we’re arguing if having those things today should be considered rich.

Come on now, $200k doesn't just barely get you a Buick. If it does its because you're living beyond your means.

@foxnewsfan has it 10000% right. We’re arguing about 200k being “rich” when we’re getting railroaded by people who are actually rich. They’d be hysterically laughing at this conversation.

Taxing “millionaires and billionaires” turned into taxing people making 200k really fucking fast. The inflation rate it is, 200k doesn’t go as far as it used to.

Hey I'm not trying to make people who make six figures out to be the boogeyman, if it were up to me I think we should shift the tax burden from labor to capital generally. But my point was the idea that someone who makes $200k isn't some middle class little guy, that person is upper middle class.

 

[Rob Battisti]

First off, ~$35k is individual income and most individuals pool their income into households and typically two income ones, hence the median household income being roughly twice the individual one. If you've never met such a person that doesn't mean they don't exist, in fact its perfectly predictable that if your wife makes roughly three times the median income that she'd be in a a class distinct from people that made only a fraction of what she made. Part of this is age; lots of young people don't make as much money because they are not as educated and experienced.

But you are right, in some cases these income levels just aren't enough. Hence California has the highest rate of employed homeless people. There are people with jobs in Cali that have to couch surf or sleep at shelters. Imagine working a full day's work and "coming home" to a shelter, yikes.

I'm not underestimating it, I posted numbers earlier which showed that the only two cities where $200k isn't enough to afford a home are in California(San Jose, San Fran).

Right now my friend is in Cali for work and he tells me about it, its insane. He's fine because he works in tech making six figures so he's apart of the modern priestly caste that gets to live well in these cities. That's kind of my point, he has individual income less than $200k and he lives just fine. In fairness he doesn't live in San Fran proper which is the pinnacle of high living costs but where he lives ain't cheap either, just a stone's throw away.

Part of my argument is that even if you have less material wealth in terms of something like sqft in your home, you're paying for the value of living in that iconic city and hence that's why your home is much more valuable.

There are massive homes in states like North Carolina that you could buy with a fraction of the cost you'd get a small home in San Fran but people want to live in San Fran, not rural Appalachia. California has a world university system, a hub of tech and cinema, world class cultural institutions, just an all around dynamic state that comes with many benefits if you're willing to pay for the high cost.

If you make $200k and are scraping by, you're living beyond your means and maybe its because you want to live in the awesome mega-cities of California for all those benefits and of course I sympathize. Notice that when people leave Cali due to high costs, they're not moving to rural bumfuck states where they could buy a 50 acre landed estate with the value of their modest single family home in California. They want to move to other states that have dynamic economics and global cities like Texas and Florida. As a Florida bro I welcome Cali bros looking for lower housing costs and escape from communist tyranny. We have Disneyland, the Everglades, and Miami, what's not to like?

Come on now, $200k doesn't just barely get you a Buick. If it does its because you're living beyond your means.

Hey I'm not trying to make people who make six figures out to be the boogeyman, if it were up to me I think we should shift the tax burden from labor to capital generally. But my point was the idea that someone who makes $200k isn't some middle class little guy, that person is upper middle class.

I said back in 1960 and I was illustrating a point about what the “middle class” used to have.

 

[CantCucktheTuck]

lol no thank god I’m not

What extra chromosome country are you from?

 

[White Whale]

The problem is this bill won't affect billionaires who have accountants to find loopholes and lawyers to protect their wealth. Politicians are not going to do anything to hurt or upset their donors.

 

[So Fresh]

What extra chromosome country are you from?

I’m from the Netherlands. You probably don’t know where or what that is, but it’s that country that scores better than the US on almost every metric there is.

 

[deadon]

First off, ~$35k is individual income and most individuals pool their income into households and typically two income ones, hence the median household income being roughly twice the individual one. If you've never met such a person that doesn't mean they don't exist, in fact its perfectly predictable that if your wife makes roughly three times the median income that she'd be in a a class distinct from people that made only a fraction of what she made. Part of this is age; lots of young people don't make as much money because they are not as educated and experienced.

But you are right, in some cases these income levels just aren't enough. Hence California has the highest rate of employed homeless people. There are people with jobs in Cali that have to couch surf or sleep at shelters. Imagine working a full day's work and "coming home" to a shelter, yikes.

I'm not underestimating it, I posted numbers earlier which showed that the only two cities where $200k isn't enough to afford a home are in California(San Jose, San Fran).

Right now my friend is in Cali for work and he tells me about it, its insane. He's fine because he works in tech making six figures so he's apart of the modern priestly caste that gets to live well in these cities. That's kind of my point, he has individual income less than $200k and he lives just fine. In fairness he doesn't live in San Fran proper which is the pinnacle of high living costs but where he lives ain't cheap either, just a stone's throw away.

Part of my argument is that even if you have less material wealth in terms of something like sqft in your home, you're paying for the value of living in that iconic city and hence that's why your home is much more valuable.

There are massive homes in states like North Carolina that you could buy with a fraction of the cost you'd get a small home in San Fran but people want to live in San Fran, not rural Appalachia. California has a world university system, a hub of tech and cinema, world class cultural institutions, just an all around dynamic state that comes with many benefits if you're willing to pay for the high cost.

If you make $200k and are scraping by, you're living beyond your means and maybe its because you want to live in the awesome mega-cities of California for all those benefits and of course I sympathize. Notice that when people leave Cali due to high costs, they're not moving to rural bumfuck states where they could buy a 50 acre landed estate with the value of their modest single family home in California. They want to move to other states that have dynamic economics and global cities like Texas and Florida. As a Florida bro I welcome Cali bros looking for lower housing costs and escape from communist tyranny. We have Disneyland, the Everglades, and Miami, what's not to like?

Come on now, $200k doesn't just barely get you a Buick. If it does its because you're living beyond your means.

Hey I'm not trying to make people who make six figures out to be the boogeyman, if it were up to me I think we should shift the tax burden from labor to capital generally. But my point was the idea that someone who makes $200k isn't some middle class little guy, that person is upper middle class.

First of all I was just at in and out off of Madison in Sacramento. The sign says, starts at 21.00hr. As we sat and ate a young man was going table to table handing out applications. They need help and this is a burger joint. He said they couldn't find anyone to work for 21.00 hr.

Now you can try and tell me that the single income is 35k a year and I'll ask you if you want to buy a bridge to no where.
I'll be back next week and I'll stop there again and take a pic of the sign. If a fast food joint is paying 21hr there's no way the single income in CA is 35k. But believe what you want I guess.

 

[Rob Battisti]

I’m from the Netherlands. You probably don’t know where or what that is, but it’s that country that scores better than the US on almost every metric there is.

Except WEF interference!

 

[Islam Imamate]

I said back in 1960 and I was illustrating a point about what the “middle class” used to have.

Again I think you're focusing too much on superficial ownership instead of looking at this from the POV of things like net worth. And again remember when we talk about $200k income, we're talking about individual income and not household income. $200k for an individual is definitely upper middle class at least.

 

[So Fresh]

Except WEF interference!

You can do better, come on.

 

[Rob Battisti]

Again I think you're focusing too much on superficial ownership instead of looking at this from the POV of things like net worth. And again remember when we talk about $200k income, we're talking about individual income and not household income. $200k for an individual is definitely upper middle class at least.

Agree to disagree. I can’t agree that taking “average” income and not talking about what that average income can buy can be a determinant on what “upper middle class” is.

Also, wtf why are we arguing! Are upper middle class people the enemy now? It’s still MIDDLE CLASS!

 

[Rob Battisti]

You can do better, come on.

I like the Netherlands so I got nothing.

 

[helltoupee]

Are you somehow under the impression that the cost of civilization should be free?

I mean, it's one thing to be pissed about how our tax money is spent, or how it's wasted outrageously in no bid contracts, military contractors, grants, etc., but to insinuate that the cost of living in a relatively nice society should be absolutely free sounds kind of childish to me.

 

[Islam Imamate]

First of all I was just at in and out off of Madison in Sacramento. The sign says, starts at 21.00hr. As we sat and ate a young man was going table to table handing out applications. They need help and this is a burger joint. He said they couldn't find anyone to work for 21.00 hr.

Now you can try and tell me that the single income is 35k a year and I'll ask you if you want to buy a bridge to no where.
I'll be back next week and I'll stop there again and take a pic of the sign. If a fast food joint is paying 21hr there's no way the single income in CA is 35k. But believe what you want I guess.

Again I'm talking about the median income for the entire state, obviously there are going areas with lower cost of living and lower paying jobs. The median income of California is going to include people who live in the high cost area of San Fran and San Jose but also the low cost rural areas of the state so that the statewide median income might seem paltry if you live in the high cost area. The median income in San Fran is closer to ~$55k while in some rural counties is under $30k.

Agree to disagree. I can’t agree that taking “average” income and not talking about what that average income can buy can be a determinant on what “upper middle class” is.

Again you're discounting what is actually being bought here. Its just not the material wealth of the house a family in California is buying, its the luxury of living in California itself. That means access to world class cultural institutions, universities, hospitals, access to major industries like tech and cinema and not to mention mild weather and beaches. A rural town with low cost of living just isn't going to have world class institutions just a commute away the way a city in California does.

Also, wtf why are we arguing! Are upper middle class people the enemy now? It’s still MIDDLE CLASS!

I'm not saying upper middle class people are the enemy, in fact I clarified that in an earlier post

Hey I'm not trying to make people who make six figures out to be the boogeyman, if it were up to me I think we should shift the tax burden from labor to capital generally. But my point was the idea that someone who makes $200k isn't some middle class little guy, that person is upper middle class.

But is it really wrong for the government to enforce existing tax laws even if they're not only going after the uber-rich?

 

[regmma123]

Bidens original Build Back Better plan was to raise taxes on those who made over $400K yearly. The Right (including Manchin) were not having that

 

[Beechwood]

Democrats have their priorities and auditing Americans is high on Democrats list.


Dems Poised To Make IRS Larger Than Pentagon, State Department, FBI, and Border Patrol Combined
Manchin-backed Inflation Reduction Act would more than double agency's size

https://freebeacon.com/policy/dems-...te-department-fbi-and-border-patrol-combined/

 

[deadon]

Democrats have their priorities and auditing Americans is high on Democrats list.


Dems Poised To Make IRS Larger Than Pentagon, State Department, FBI, and Border Patrol Combined
Manchin-backed Inflation Reduction Act would more than double agency's size

https://freebeacon.com/policy/dems-...te-department-fbi-and-border-patrol-combined/

When they came out and said you have to report anything over 600.00 in digital payments the writing was on the wall.
They want every last penny because we don't pay enough taxes already.
There will reach a point where Americans wake up. I hope it's not too late.
Think of all the taxes we pay on everything. How much is the average person that makes 100k really paying in all taxes? I bet it's a lot! Local, fed, power bill, phone, internet, items, the list goes on and on.

 

[boingyman]

I'm not underestimating it, I posted numbers earlier which showed that the only two cities where $200k isn't enough to afford a home are in California(San Jose, San Fran).

Right now my friend is in Cali for work and he tells me about it, its insane. He's fine because he works in tech making six figures so he's apart of the modern priestly caste that gets to live well in these cities. That's kind of my point, he has individual income less than $200k and he lives just fine. In fairness he doesn't live in San Fran proper which is the pinnacle of high living costs but where he lives ain't cheap either, just a stone's throw away.

Part of my argument is that even if you have less material wealth in terms of something like sqft in your home, you're paying for the value of living in that iconic city and hence that's why your home is much more valuable.

There are massive homes in states like North Carolina that you could buy with a fraction of the cost you'd get a small home in San Fran but people want to live in San Fran, not rural Appalachia. California has a world university system, a hub of tech and cinema, world class cultural institutions, just an all around dynamic state that comes with many benefits if you're willing to pay for the high cost.

If you make $200k and are scraping by, you're living beyond your means and maybe its because you want to live in the awesome mega-cities of California for all those benefits and of course I sympathize. Notice that when people leave Cali due to high costs, they're not moving to rural bumfuck states where they could buy a 50 acre landed estate with the value of their modest single family home in California. They want to move to other states that have dynamic economics and global cities like Texas and Florida. As a Florida bro I welcome Cali bros looking for lower housing costs and escape from communist tyranny. We have Disneyland, the Everglades, and Miami, what's not to like?

Come on now, $200k doesn't just barely get you a Buick. If it does its because you're living beyond your means.

Hey I'm not trying to make people who make six figures out to be the boogeyman, if it were up to me I think we should shift the tax burden from labor to capital generally. But my point was the idea that someone who makes $200k isn't some middle class little guy, that person is upper middle class.

A single guy making $200k/year is upper-middle class almost anywhere I agree, but I'm speaking about young couples with young children. Also it's not just San Jose and San Francisco it's most of the Bay Area (which is huge) and is trickling to what was the more affordable places up Hwy 80 to Sacramento area. Not to mention many cities in Southern California such as LA, Burbank, Glendale, Santa Barbara, Irvine, San Diego, etc. $200k in these metro areas is not upper-middle class when you would struggle to find a decent home for $1 mil (or not even exist at all). A $1 mil jumbo loan ones PITI mortgage would average $7000 +/- $300 for a 30 year fixed at 4.75-5.25%. You would be house poor with a $200k income even if you are very frugal. At that point how much could one even contribute towards retirement? How about the cost of daycare/preschool, high healthcare premiums (especially in Nor-Cal), etc.

 

[MoparOrNoCar]

Who cares what is considered middle class. We should be talking abut how our government is working against anyone who isn't in the 1% and forcing the rest of us to pick up the tab so their billionaire buddies can jump right through loopholes that don't do a damn thing for the rest of us.

Stop voting these people into office. They hate you and do not work for you.

 

[deadon]

It seems the excitement has cooled off now that facts are coming out and people are paying attention.
The charts showing who the IRS are really auditing are waking people up. The EV credit doesn't help because of limits.
What a joke this bill is.

 

[Rob Battisti]

Who cares what is considered middle class. We should be talking abut how our government is working against anyone who isn't in the 1% and forcing the rest of us to pick up the tab so their billionaire buddies can jump right through loopholes that don't do a damn thing for the rest of us.

Stop voting these people into office. They hate you and do not work for you.

Amen!!