Sarcoplasmic Hypertrophy

In addition to Wendler supporting the use of olympic lifts, even for those of us who don't compete in olympic lifting; (1) Bill Starr considered power cleans (along with squats and bench press) one of the key lifts for building strength and athleticism (2) Rippetoe has a similar opinion on power cleans, and they are included in starting strength (3) and Pendlay has stated in this forum that if he could choose only 3 lifts, he'd choose the power clean, high bar squat and push press, and included power cleans/power snatches in the routine he shared.

Does this mean that someone has to include power cleans (or other olympic lifts), no, I wouldn't say that. But it does mean stating outright that they should be avoided by people who aren't olympic lifters is silly.
 
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I heard someone say that Bil Starr stated he would have had the press instead of the bench press but no one would have taken it seriously without the bench.
 
I heard someone say that Bil Starr stated he would have had the press instead of the bench press but no one would have taken it seriously without the bench.

I read that too. I feel like it might have been in one of the articles on SS.com.
 
I heard someone say that Bil Starr stated he would have had the press instead of the bench press but no one would have taken it seriously without the bench.

It seems like this is an opinion shared by many of the top strength trainers. I've never heard a detailed explanation *why* however. Can anybody shed some light on this?
 
http://startingstrength.com/articles/olympic_press_starr.pdf

I am often asked why we made the bench press our primary upper body exercise when we both believed that the overhead press was the superior lift to improve shoulder girdle strength. It was because of all the negative comments in the media about the dangers of the overhead press to the lower back and we didn’t want to have deal with two exercises that were controversial. We already had the full squat, which was also under fire due to the false information generated by Dr. K.K. Klein’s so called “research” on the subject. We quickly discovered that we had our hands full defending that lift which we knew was the cornerstone of the entire program. We wanted to substitute the incline bench for the overhead press, but alas, that was not possible. In the late sixties, incline benches were as scarce as hen’s teeth. We only had one at the York Barbell and after talking with coaches from high schools and colleges, we found that they had none. Zero. So it didn’t make any sense to include an exercise that couldn’t be done without purchasing another piece of equipment. We settled
 
It seems like this is an opinion shared by many of the top strength trainers. I've never heard a detailed explanation *why* however. Can anybody shed some light on this?

Rippetoe touches on it some in SS. His opinion (as written in SS) is basically that since the press is performed standing it has more carryover to most other standing pushing motions done in contact sports like football. He says something about the bench press's kinetic chain running from the hands to the upper back (excluding leg drive which is not a primary part of the lift) and the press's kinetic chain running from hands to feet. This apparently is part of the reason that the press a better exercise.
 
So now we have Bill Starr, Mark Rippetoe, and Glenn Pendlay saying that the overhead press is the preferable upper-body exercise and have a hint as to why.

What's the opposing viewpoint, if there is any?
 
Here's an article defending the bench. It's not saying that overhead press is bad, just that bench is good too.

Defending the Bench Press

The overhead press is a great lift, no doubt about it. Unfortunately, it takes more biomechanical
 
In addition to Wendler supporting the use of olympic lifts, even for those of us who don't compete in olympic lifting; (1) Bill Starr considered power cleans (along with squats and bench press) one of the key lifts for building strength and athleticism (2) Rippetoe has a similar opinion on power cleans, and they are included in starting strength (3) and Pendlay has stated in this forum that if he could choose only 3 lifts, he'd choose the power clean, high bar squat and push press, and included power cleans/power snatches in the routine he shared.

They train mainly weightlifters, did you even read the article i posted?

I could throw around names too, i had met a lot of Cuban coaches on athletism, Judo, Wrestling etc etc, and they barely, if anything rely on olympic lifts for power.

Does this mean that someone has to include power cleans (or other olympic lifts), no, I wouldn't say that. But it does mean stating outright that they should be avoided by people who aren't olympic lifters is silly.

I never said avoided, i merely stated that they have a high learning curve and a high risk of injury specially on people who isn't trained in them.
 
They train mainly weightlifters

Out of the four I mentioned, only Pendlay trains mainly weightlifters. Wendler's background is in football and powerlifting, Rippetoe's background is powerlifting and strength training for novices, especially youths, and while Bill Starr did compete as a weightlifter, he trained athletes for football.

did you even read the article i posted?

Here, 4 studies, all showing the central assumption of the article you posted to be invalid. Olympic lifts do, in fact, enhance power in different types of movements, like jumping or sprinting.

Short-term effects on lower-body functional power ... [J Strength Cond Res. 2005] - PubMed result
Comparison of Olympic vs. traditional power liftin... [J Strength Cond Res. 2004] - PubMed result
Does performance of hang power clean differentiate... [J Strength Cond Res. 2008] - PubMed result
Vertical Jump Biomechanics after Plyometric, Weigh... [J Strength Cond Res. 2010] - PubMed result

I could throw around names too, i had met a lot of Cuban coaches on athletism, Judo, Wrestling etc etc, and they barely, if anything rely on olympic lifts for power.

Just because you can name coaches that don't make use of the olympic lifts doesn't show that they aren't useful in training athletes. Besides which, I didn't throw around just any names, which should be obvious to anyone who knows anything about lifting.

I never said avoided, i merely stated that they have a high learning curve and a high risk of injury specially on people who isn't trained in them.

Stating repeatedly that they will certainly fuck up your wrists, even if you're competent in them, and how awful that is unless your sport is TKD, is telling people to avoid olympic lifts. Or do you not understand what your own words imply?
 
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I actually heard that some lifters have wrist injuries but they were obtained over time, I laughed because if you do the lift with good technique you probably will have no problem, its not like you're c&j 200 kg wich I guess probably is the case for most lifters that got injured.
 
Out of the four I mentioned, only Pendlay trains mainly weightlifters. Wendler's background is in football and powerlifting, Rippetoe's background is powerlifting and strength training for novices, especially youths, and while Bill Starr did compete as a weightlifter, he trained athletes for football.

PL and WL are basically the same kind of sport, different rules, but they are about a 1RM, their trainings are similar.

Football is another sport that its mainly about max effort, and i still doubt that wide-receivers and runningbacks are doing Oly lifts, specially since competitive season is so long in NFL, so there is little time to train general exercises.


I stand corrected and thank you for providing these articles, do you by any chance have a link to the full articles?

Just because you can name coaches that don't make use of the olympic lifts doesn't show that they aren't useful in training athletes. Besides which, I didn't throw around just any names, which should be obvious to anyone who knows anything about lifting.

Never said they are useless, i said the learning curve is too high and the risk of injury is too for inexperienced athletes and that there are easier exercises to build power.

Jump squats, high pulls? (we just called them halfcleans) exert similar results to full cleans, and i would say that snatch has no place outside oly weighltifting

Stating repeatedly that they will certainly fuck up your wrists, even if you're competent in them, and how awful that is unless your sport is TKD, is telling people to avoid olympic lifts. Or do you not understand what your own words imply?

Stating that i said such a thing over and over is the same or worse, let me refer to the original quotation.

Beware of Olympic lifts, if you can do them ok, but if you are thinking about beggining, take into account that they are hard and they have a long history of messing the wrists which would screw up any combat sport but TKD.

There are IMO, easier ways to increase explosivity squat jumps, hang cleans, box jumps etc.

I specifically said to beware or be careful of Olympic lifts IF you are thinking about beggining, which was the original reply, they are HARD (and they are HARD to master, no denying this) and do have a long history of ****ing up wrist specially when LEARNING.

A fucked wrist will impact ALL combat sports but TKD, which is also true. I also pointed out that in my opinion, there are easier ways to increase explosivity.

Again, you go from that, to me saying oly lifts are bad and they will certainly injure, when i specifically said that i practice oly lifting.
 
I actually heard that some lifters have wrist injuries but they were obtained over time, I laughed because if you do the lift with good technique you probably will have no problem, its not like you're c&j 200 kg wich I guess probably is the case for most lifters that got injured.

but if you are thinking about beggining, take into account that they are hard and they have a long history of messing the wrists

Yeah, you will have perfect technique when just learning to do them, right.

Next time take your time to read.
 
PL and WL are basically the same kind of sport, different rules, but they are about a 1RM, their trainings are similar.

This doesn't change the original point.

Football is another sport that its mainly about max effort, and i still doubt that wide-receivers and runningbacks are doing Oly lifts, specially since competitive season is so long in NFL, so there is little time to train general exercises.

It would depend on the coach, but many most certainly are.

I stand corrected and thank you for providing these articles, do you by any chance have a link to the full articles?

Unfortunately, full articles of studies published in scientific journals are usually only accesible with either a subscription to that journal, or through a university (or possibly a library).

Never said they are useless, i said the learning curve is too high and the risk of injury is too for inexperienced athletes and that there are easier exercises to build power.

Jump squats, high pulls? (we just called them halfcleans) exert similar results to full cleans, and i would say that snatch has no place outside oly weighltifting

Whether the learning curve is too high would depend on the individual athlete, the amount of time for training, and the ability of the coach. The people I previously mentioned don't seem to think the learning curve is too high. There's no reason for making a blanket statement.

Additionally, the snatch can be useful if (1) someone has trouble racking the clean properly (either a lack of flexibility, or in some cases the arms being to large, ex. a linebacker)

Stating that i said such a thing over and over is the same or worse, let me refer to the original quotation.

I specifically said to beware or be careful of Olympic lifts IF you are thinking about beggining, which was the original reply, they are HARD (and they are HARD to master, no denying this) and do have a long history of ****ing up wrist specially when LEARNING.

A fucked wrist will impact ALL combat sports but TKD, which is also true. I also pointed out that in my opinion, there are easier ways to increase explosivity.

Again, you go from that, to me saying oly lifts are bad and they will certainly injure, when i specifically said that i practice oly lifting.

You're severly overstating the risk of injury. Weightlifting even has a lower risk of injury than badminton of all things.

Injury Rates and Profiles of Elite Competitive Weightlifters
Hamill, 1994, Relative Safety of Weightlifting and Weight Training

And of course they're hard to master, but the same goes for any sport.
 
Anyone who calls a high pull a "half clean" gets immediately disregarded.
 
Anyone who calls a high pull a "half clean" gets immediately disregarded.

Yes, because everyone in the world speaks english as their primary language right?

Name high pull in spanish, and no, its not jalon alto.
 
The clean is very useful. The insistence upon its mastery around here is a bit perplexing. There is a wealth of what is done to make athletes explosive. Posterior chain development is only part of that, and the clean is only part of that.
 
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