Sandbagging has its good side

Excellent points, very very well put. You have to bear in mind that originally one would get a blue belt after 40 lessons with Helio Gracie, and the art has evolved without the belts doing so. BJJ is so conservative that even Helio
 
Balto said:
I see what you are saying, and I'm glad you decided to post a controversial and original take on the situation. However, I think that you are wrong.

I have trained in different martial arts, and the BJJ belt system is messed up as it is. Way too much is expected at each belt level already. If even more is expected at each level, the sandbagging problem is going to get even worse because people are going to be white belts for 4 years just to compete. I think the belts are slow enough already and don't need further slowing.

I think most people here would agree that Judo ranks are legitimate. They are tested in competition all the time. People are not typically promoted to the higher ranks unless they have proven themselves against the lower ranks in randori and shiai. However, it should seem odd that a BJJ blue belt is more or less equivalent to a 1st dan in Judo. A purple belt is roughly 2nd dan, etc. Basically BJJ white belt covers every Judo rank from white to black.

This is why some schools add the rank of green belt in between white and blue. It is because there need to be more ranks in the early stages. It should come as no surprise that the vast majority of sandbagging occurs in the white belt and blue belt divisions. You don't really hear much about purple belt sandbagging because the ranking system starts to make sense at that level.

The whitebelt division ends up essentially pitting some people who would be 1st dan in Judo against some people who would be like a green belt in Judo. It's unfair and needs to be fixed.

Requiring more to advance to each rank is going to make the problem worse. If anything, BJJ needs 1-2 additional ranks in between white and blue.

Every school already recognizes this to some degree. That is why there are stripes. But at the tournament, there are no stripe divisions and everyone is lumped together. This is why sandbagging is so prevalent.

Well put. I agree with most of it.
 
I definitely value my ranks in slower-ranked systems more than the others.

I wasn't aware of sandbagging being much of a problem in gi tourneys. I've gone against my share of guys "just about to get their blue" and my last couple tourneys I was that guy. If it had been my choice I would have been competing at blue but didn't for 2 reasons: 1) instructor requested I compete at white and 2) last time I tried to compete as blue I got disqualified because I wasn't blue.

I've seen a lot of sandbagging in no-gi, but that's ok with me. A sandbagger is somebody that isn't confident in his abilities. Time spent isn't a very good gauge of competitive skill anyhow. I see plenty of skilled wreslters in lower divisions doing ok, but wouldn't have a chance in the higher divisions due to lack of skills in submission defense.

If tourneys weren't single elimination I wouldn't have any problem with a flat division. Too bad round-robin doesn't work. Or at least let me compete in multiple skill divisions.
 
Hmm, I'm confused as to what most of you guys think sandbagging is. If a guy takes off his blue belt, to compete in the white belt competition IS sandbagging, and doesn't make the art any better or worse. It just means that that blue belt is insecure of his skills and wants to dominate people for the fuck of it.

Now if a instructor feels that a student of his is yet not a blue belt although he can whipe the mats with most white belts isn't sandbagging. Every teacher has his/her own particular way of promoting. Sandbagging is just gay in my opinion.
 
Sandbagging has its good sides and its bad sides...
1. they raise the standards of getting to the next belt.. maybe itll help everyone else catch up to the skill level of people training in Brazil..
2. it gets you completely prepared before you get promoted..
3. it does suck to face blue belts with Brown belt calibre..
4. it also slows down belt promotions.. like having 5 year old blue belts.. who have all the skills to wear the brown..
5. its very discouraging..
6. it does help make better champions
 
Soid said:
Now if a instructor feels that a student of his is yet not a blue belt although he can whipe the mats with most white belts isn't sandbagging. Every teacher has his/her own particular way of promoting.


This is me. This is a relief.

I think a blue taking off his belt and putting on a white is just a lose-lose situation. That's an extreme example, on the other hand, it should be difficult to win even a white belt competition. If you lose, what can you do? Train harder.

My club has lots of blue belts and it usually takes them about 1 to 2 years to reach that level. The previous grapplers (usually judo guys) go in at white but go up much quicker than this. Eventually, everyone goes up if they keep training. Everyone gets benefits out of training. We can't all be competition winners all the time.
 
IMO slowing down belt promotions isnt such an issue as we should be worried about our skills increasing and not about our belt getting darker....belt promotion is consequence
 
In some ways i could agree...of course sandbagging makes the level of the competition somewhat very high,and even if i am still a white belt i totally love the system the belts are rewarded in bjj..but a white belt division should however stay at a low level,if someone trains from 6 - 12 months(actually i train from only 5 )i think he have the right to fight with others of his level,not with the "almost blue belt"...maybe like someone suggest a "years of trianing" division would be more fair...just my 2 cents
P.S.Exscuse me for my bad english :wink:
 
ZeMino said:
Sandbagging has its good sides and its bad sides...
1. they raise the standards of getting to the next belt.. maybe itll help everyone else catch up to the skill level of people training in Brazil..
2. it gets you completely prepared before you get promoted..
3. it does suck to face blue belts with Brown belt calibre..
4. it also slows down belt promotions.. like having 5 year old blue belts.. who have all the skills to wear the brown..
5. its very discouraging..
6. it does help make better champions


Yeah there is a blue at our school that is a forever blue there are a couple. They are so good... They rival the other purples and browns some times but have been blue forever.

Alot has to do with regularity and dedication to class, tournaments, teaching ability..... but still one of these guys should atleast be purple..
 
Balto said:
I see what you are saying, and I'm glad you decided to post a controversial and original take on the situation. However, I think that you are wrong.

I have trained in different martial arts, and the BJJ belt system is messed up as it is. Way too much is expected at each belt level already. If even more is expected at each level, the sandbagging problem is going to get even worse because people are going to be white belts for 4 years just to compete. I think the belts are slow enough already and don't need further slowing.

I think most people here would agree that Judo ranks are legitimate. They are tested in competition all the time. People are not typically promoted to the higher ranks unless they have proven themselves against the lower ranks in randori and shiai. However, it should seem odd that a BJJ blue belt is more or less equivalent to a 1st dan in Judo. A purple belt is roughly 2nd dan, etc. Basically BJJ white belt covers every Judo rank from white to black.

This is why some schools add the rank of green belt in between white and blue. It is because there need to be more ranks in the early stages. It should come as no surprise that the vast majority of sandbagging occurs in the white belt and blue belt divisions. You don't really hear much about purple belt sandbagging because the ranking system starts to make sense at that level.

The whitebelt division ends up essentially pitting some people who would be 1st dan in Judo against some people who would be like a green belt in Judo. It's unfair and needs to be fixed.

Requiring more to advance to each rank is going to make the problem worse. If anything, BJJ needs 1-2 additional ranks in between white and blue.

Every school already recognizes this to some degree. That is why there are stripes. But at the tournament, there are no stripe divisions and everyone is lumped together. This is why sandbagging is so prevalent.

At the beginning of your post I was shaking my head no. But by the end of it I was agreeing with you.

I think the conservatism of BJJ in regards to belts is good. But, as you pointed out, all it really does is make the blue belt/purple belt equivalent to first dan black belt. With no ranks to differentiate inbetween the total true beginner (just walked into class) and a guy with potentially years of experience under his belt the tournaments can become a mess.
 
The biggest problem i see causing sandbagging is that in a lot of places there just arent enough black belt instructors to go around to grade there students. Lots of pll are training under browns, purples and heaps of ppl are training under blues. Problem in two fold here, not only does it take students longer to learn when training under collourd belts, but the instructor can only really grade his students to one belt below his own unless he gets HIS head instructor if he has one (hopefully a black belt) to grade the student up to maybe the coaches level. BUT THAT DONT HAPPEN TOO OFTEN, because not too many instructors want to be seen teaching a class full of students who are at the same belt as him...

To all you ppl training under a rijji dijj black belt... LUCKY BASTARDS!
 
Some of you dudes are pulling the old double standard routine. It goes like this: A judo black belt is sand bagging if he competes white / blue belt in a bjj tournament. However, according to some of you guys, a bjj blue belt is the equivalent of a judo black belt. You're spouting shit.
Also, what's this crap of getting a judo belt promotion every 2 months? I've been doing Judo for 5 years and I'm a green belt. The belts in Judo go: white, yellow, orange, green, then 3 levels of brown, black. So it's taken me, and most of my buddies, about a year or so per belt promotion.

On topic: The last judo tournament I competed in (novice division) was the toughest I've ever been in. I finished 4th out of 5 competitors. 2 years previous I took second place in the novice division. I don't think my result in the last tournament was because of other people sanbagging. In fact, it was because of exactly what Vagabond is saying: novice competitors are a helluva lot better than they were 2 or 3 years ago. My last Novice tournament had wrestlers, bjj guys, cage fighters, you name it. Grappling has evolved quickly. If you can't adapt, it's gonna' be rough, even at novice level.

I agree with the Vagabond, except for what he's saying about bjj belt levels compared to judo belt levels...
 
I can see your point, but it really isn't necessary. To be succesful at a higher belt level you'd need to keep getting good, so if nobody sandbags the white belt division and you get your blue belt you'll still need to be a damn good blue belt to win.
 
Yea I see your point about raising the bar . My point was about guys that have trained 5 or 6 years and have not moved up in rank ...Also I have seen two differant times a white belt said he didn't want the promotion to blue (these guys were good to say the least ) . But hey I still get out there and go to tourneys and have a blast ....LOL
 
Criminals help to strengthen police job security.

Sandbaggers suck, period.
 
Bubble Boy said:
Some of you dudes are pulling the old double standard routine. It goes like this: A judo black belt is sand bagging if he competes white / blue belt in a bjj tournament. However, according to some of you guys, a bjj blue belt is the equivalent of a judo black belt. You're spouting shit.
Also, what's this crap of getting a judo belt promotion every 2 months? I've been doing Judo for 5 years and I'm a green belt. The belts in Judo go: white, yellow, orange, green, then 3 levels of brown, black. So it's taken me, and most of my buddies, about a year or so per belt promotion.

I am basing my blue belt BJJ/first dan Judo equivalence off of the Kodokan website.

"The course is divided into two, general course for novices, and special courses for those who have completed the general course or its equivalent. In Adult Division, it is planned so as to make one attain the First Dan after finishing three months in the general course and nine months in a special course." Taken from: http://www.kodokan.org/e_basic/school.html

Obviously this is an intensive training course (probably 6 days a week). However, if one can attain first dan in one year of intensive training, it is reasonable to expect that one can attain the first dan after 2-3 years of more standard training (3 days a week). That time frame seems to make it roughly equivalent to the BJJ blue belt.
 
DreamKeella said:
Criminals help to strengthen police job security.

Sandbaggers suck, period.

Bullshit analogy right there.

But sandbaggers suck, period.
 
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