Sakuraba vs Penn: Fighting Giants, Who has the more lasting legacy to you?

Saku for sure, a true legend...to me BJ's greatness was largely tied in with commentators/nuthuggers
 
Mochan said:
I remember Sakuraba today as the Greatest of All Time.
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That's your heart talking dude, not your head. But it's okay, sentimentality can be a positive human trait... and if anyone deserves the sentiment, it's Saku.
 
Sakuraba is the ACTUAL P4P GOAT
 
MCS said:
Penn had success and was in big fights for a longer course of time, so his legacy has more lasting appeal.
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Sakuraba was in the biggest fights at the time. People seem to have forgotten than during the time he destroyed the Gracies, the Gracies were an invincible family that never lost. Sakuraba handed them all (except for Renzo) their first losses and shattered the aura of invincibility the Gracies had. It's the equivalent of Holm beating Rhonda, or Nate beating McG , actually more than that since a lot of people though McG and Rhonda were tools waiting to be exposed.

At the time, the world thought the Gracies were the best fighters on the planet.

This is probably difficult for people to understand if they weren't into MMA at the time. But for those of us who were, the nickname "Gracie Hunter" carries a lot of weight that people who only got into the sport later cannot understand.


You also need to understand that Sakuraba was probably single-handedly responsible for the explosion of MMA's popularity in the late 90's. He carried Pride FC and MMA itself by his lonesome! He was a national hero. An entire country put its hopes and dreams in him. That's the kind of impact he had. BJ isn't even close.

But I do understand that this Topic is about who had the more impact to you personally, so I can understand people saying BJ. But if you had to look at it historically and objectively, Sakuraba wins this by far.
 
sadclown said:
That's your heart talking dude, not your head. But it's okay, sentimentality can be a positive human trait... and if anyone deserves the sentiment, it's Saku.
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You've been brainwashed by current MMA opinion to think that UFC belts and perfect win records are everything. That's okay.

I simply value different things when considering who the Greatest of All Time is
 
Mochan said:
You've been brainwashed by current MMA opinion to think that UFC belts and perfect win records are everything. That's okay.

I simply value different things when considering who the Greatest of All Time is
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Nope. Fedor is GOAT... and he ain't got a UFC belts.
 
Didn't BJ only beat ONE GUY, ONCE at WW?

He lost every other fight against larger fighters.

He was a great LW though.
 
Mochan said:
Sakuraba was in the biggest fights at the time. People seem to have forgotten than during the time he destroyed the Gracies, the Gracies were an invincible family that never lost. Sakuraba handed them all (except for Renzo) their first losses and shattered the aura of invincibility the Gracies had. It's the equivalent of Holm beating Rhonda, or Nate beating McG , actually more than that since a lot of people though McG and Rhonda were tools waiting to be exposed.

At the time, the world thought the Gracies were the best fighters on the planet.

This is probably difficult for people to understand if they weren't into MMA at the time. But for those of us who were, the nickname "Gracie Hunter" carries a lot of weight that people who only got into the sport later cannot understand.


You also need to understand that Sakuraba was probably single-handedly responsible for the explosion of MMA's popularity in the late 90's. He carried Pride FC and MMA itself by his lonesome! He was a national hero. An entire country put its hopes and dreams in him. That's the kind of impact he had. BJ isn't even close.

But I do understand that this Topic is about who had the more impact to you personally, so I can understand people saying BJ. But if you had to look at it historically and objectively, Sakuraba wins this by far.
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I agree that Saku's impact was bigger because he was a successful Japanese fighter during their mma boom, but his lasting appeal correlates with that boom - it doesn't last in people's minds.

If you look at it purely objectively Pride was the bigger show and Saku was their star, so he has the bigger legacy for the sport as a whole, but that's also because of his environment and not solely because of individual achievements (which were great on their own).

Penn jumped right onto the scene and beat top 5 guys, then beat ranked fighters in 3 weight classes and won belts in 2 divisions. Had success for about 10 years in big fights, whereas Saku had a rapid ascension, which turned into crazy size mismatches and then into freak shows. He wasn't as long on top as Penn was and Penn's success wasn't because of a national climate or organizational structure, but based on talent.

Individually they're similar though since both took on crazy fights. But in those size challenges Penn had much better results, while Saku was game, but lost more. Add to that that BJ was on top for longer and people remember him more.
 
groo said:
Didn't BJ only beat ONE GUY, ONCE at WW?

He lost every other fight against larger fighters.

He was a great LW though.
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Wrong, he beat Hughes twice. He also beat both Rodrigo and Renzo Gracie at MW.

And....

He didn't lose to Fitch!

Just sayin'
 
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Mochan said:
Apparently in your world getting the WW belt is disaster.

You're crazy.

Give BJ his dues. He fought courageously at higher weights, this is something to be honored, not deplored.
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I give him massive credit for the first Hughes fight and win.

But the counter to that is that I think it ruined him after.

It turned him into a glory chaser and more importantly I think it ruined his cardio.

Penn learned in that Hughes fight that he could gain more glory beating up a 'bigger' champ then he could winning at his own weight. He also learned that he did not have to train as hard and particularly push cardio as he could carry all of his natural weight into those fights.

And while that worked for the Hughes fight as BJ was very fit prior, over time that caught up with him. For those who do not know the pre Hughes, LW BJ, he was a grappling machine who could go 5 rounds of pretty intense grappling without gassing.

But in the end when it comes to comparing Sakuraba's career against bigger guys to BJ's their should be no comparison. Sakuraba has lots of great wins against top bigger guys. LOTS. BJ has one. ONE. Yes it was a big one but it is still only ONE. BJ ruined his record fighting bigger guys (outside that one fight) whereas Sakuraba built his record fighting bigger guys.
 
MCS said:
Penn had success and was in big fights for a longer course of time, so his legacy has more lasting appeal.
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Penn had a single success, ONE. HIs first fight with Hughes is the singular big win of his above LW career. The rest is litany of losses.

I wish Penn fans actually knew his record above LW.
 
Mochan said:
Sakuraba was in the biggest fights at the time. People seem to have forgotten than during the time he destroyed the Gracies, the Gracies were an invincible family that never lost. Sakuraba handed them all (except for Renzo) their first losses and shattered the aura of invincibility the Gracies had. It's the equivalent of Holm beating Rhonda, or Nate beating McG , actually more than that since a lot of people though McG and Rhonda were tools waiting to be exposed.

At the time, the world thought the Gracies were the best fighters on the planet.

This is probably difficult for people to understand if they weren't into MMA at the time. But for those of us who were, the nickname "Gracie Hunter" carries a lot of weight that people who only got into the sport later cannot understand.


You also need to understand that Sakuraba was probably single-handedly responsible for the explosion of MMA's popularity in the late 90's. He carried Pride FC and MMA itself by his lonesome! He was a national hero. An entire country put its hopes and dreams in him. That's the kind of impact he had. BJ isn't even close.

But I do understand that this Topic is about who had the more impact to you personally, so I can understand people saying BJ. But if you had to look at it historically and objectively, Sakuraba wins this by far.
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I guarantee you that almost to the person the people saying BJ do not know Saku or his record.

There simply is no way to pick BJ's record above LW as bigger than Saku career of fighting bigger guys.

Like you I get that 'personally' to those who know little or nothing about Saku and who came into MMA watching Penn, that to them Penn's legacy means more. But there records simply are not comparable when fighting bigger guys. Saku's dominates Penn. DOMINATES. Penn has one fight and name to put forth and his resume stops there. And no matter how big that one win was, it is not comparable to Saku's vast resume of wins and big accomplishments.
 
groo said:
Didn't BJ only beat ONE GUY, ONCE at WW?

He lost every other fight against larger fighters.

He was a great LW though.
Click to expand...

BJ only had one relevant meaningful win above LW and that was the first Hughes fight.

He beat Hughes a second time, beat Ludwig at WW and a couple Gracies, I think. All otherwise meaningless fights against, then, mostly irrelevant fighters in the weight class.
 
MCS said:
I agree that Saku's impact was bigger because he was a successful Japanese fighter during their mma boom, but his lasting appeal correlates with that boom - it doesn't last in people's minds.

If you look at it purely objectively Pride was the bigger show and Saku was their star, so he has the bigger legacy for the sport as a whole, but that's also because of his environment and not solely because of individual achievements (which were great on their own).

Penn jumped right onto the scene and beat top 5 guys, then beat ranked fighters in 3 weight classes and won belts in 2 divisions. Had success for about 10 years in big fights, whereas Saku had a rapid ascension, which turned into crazy size mismatches and then into freak shows. He wasn't as long on top as Penn was and Penn's success wasn't because of a national climate or organizational structure, but based on talent.

Individually they're similar though since both took on crazy fights. But in those size challenges Penn had much better results, while Saku was game, but lost more. Add to that that BJ was on top for longer and people remember him more.
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name the top 5 guy(s), plural Penn beat above LW? OR are you colluding Penn's LW run with his fights above LW as so many Penn fans seem to do but which is not the topic of this thread?
 
you know, i dont think penn will be as remembered for fighting giants (relative) as he will be remembered for being lw/ww champ. sakuraba will always be remembered for fighting elites above his weight class and for being the gracie hunter, all the while with a cigarette in his mouth
 
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