S & C was right, I was wrong...

Discussion in 'Strength & Conditioning Discussion' started by James Fuller, Aug 4, 2010.

  1. James Fuller

    James Fuller Amateur Fighter

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    Many of you who ? The amount of pulling motions in my routine were right. I need more dedicated training here. Now a couple quick questions,

    1. Does your grip width affect which of your muscle groups are activated most during exercises like seated or bent over rows? Ie does narrow grip work the outside and vice versa as random gym dude indicated to me?

    2. What are good compound movements that still target the upper and lower back respectively?

    3. I already dead lift heavy (5x5) and do bent over rows should I add a lower back/dead lift assist like goodmornings? Or would another exercise fit the bill?

    Also my lack of shoulder work and prejudice towards incline bench has created a serious shoulder def that lead to a tweak in a training buddy and has caused me to reexamine what I do in this area...

    1. Would going half and half incline and flat on these days be effective or is that just a shit idea?

    2. Was going to add an overhead press as well 5x5, is this the best exercise for my goal of more balanced shoulder to chest strength? Is it overkill with switching to the incline sets as well?

    3. Is there a pet exercise you like for compound movements targeting shoulders? As a two day split guy with my mma and running I need every exercise to hit as many muscles as possible.
     
  2. oyaji poi

    oyaji poi oyaji belt

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    you would need to post your entire routine to receive feedback. it's hard to say what you should add when everything that is already there is not clear.


    it's impossible to say if you "should" add GMs. It depends on the person and their weaknesses. From a powerlifting perspective GMs are usually a squat assistance lift.

    regarding shoulder work and whatever else, it usually helps to think in terms of vertical push/vertical pull; horizontal push/horizontal pull. So have one of each for each of your two lifting days. Then have a squat and deadlift variant on each day.

    The only "pet exercise" for shoulders is any vertical push. So overhead press and any of the variations - push press, with dumbbells, etc. None are really "better" than the others, but the "core" vertical press is the simple OHP.

    As to hand position, ya it can matter a bit, but don't lose sleep over it. For vertical pull I'll do chins for a few weeks, pullups for a few weeks, then parallel grip chins for a few weeks.
     
  3. James Fuller

    James Fuller Amateur Fighter

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    Thanks dude good info there will incorporate chins as well. here is what I was thinking for the next five weeks or so (have a fight coming up)

    Day 1 push
    Squat 5x5
    Bench 5x5 (3 incline)
    Overhead press 4x5

    Day 2 pull
    Deadlift/power clean 5x5
    Bentover rows 4x5
    GM's or box squats 3x10

    Didn't add my core stuff which I tend to train heavy as well since my mma classes do a lot of endurance work with those muscles. coming out of the hole is my weak part of the squat so think box squats would be best if it didn't risk over training it. Will check out the assistance lift sections to see what helps the lower part. But I think my grip work will fit nicely as I already do gi pullups I can do chinups as well on my push days give those muscles a wakeup day after they get trained heavy.
     
  4. TrainingAdict

    TrainingAdict Orange Belt

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    I think your routine here is sufficient for your fight preparation.
     
  5. PCP

    PCP Guest

    see bold
     
  6. Indivdude

    Indivdude Blue Belt

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    Like oyaji has said, you only really need GM's for a boost to help form in the squat if its needed. If your squat is doing fine then I don't need a reason to add more assistance. You can if you want though. It won't hurt as long as you don't do it heavy and with a ton of volume. A few sets at 30% or so is what is recommended. Arbitrary but that is the recommended percentage of your squat max for GM's.

    As far as the rest of the stuff, I think PCP did a good job of responding. I, personally, wouldn't do seated press but its really just personal preference unless you want to only hit shoulders.

    And for the incline and flat bench question, we had a thread recently where it was found in a study that there was no real difference in what was worked between incline and flat bench. You can do the split but if you're doing overhead work, then I would stick with overhead work and flat bench. No reason to do incline as well, since its the middleman between the two.
     
  7. PCP

    PCP Guest

    I disagree, the incline is a very effective movement for increasing the bench or overhead press. Just because it doesn't "isolate your upper pecs" or whatever dumbass reason gym monkeys have for doing it, doesn't mean it's not a great variation. For raw bench inclines are a big part of my training cycles.

    Also for GMs, you should go as heavy as possible on them IMO
     
  8. Indivdude

    Indivdude Blue Belt

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    I would think for a beginner that OHP and flat bench is fine. You're more advanced so incline would be more beneficial since it is right in the middle between the two and can help in that regard. I think it only really starts to matter when you get more advanced and need the extra help to improve in the other lifts.

    ANd as for GM's, I won't say that's wrong since I have no knowledge about GM's but the highest percentage I've seen recommended was 40% of your squat max. Not sure where that was from though.
     
  9. Tosa

    Tosa Red Belt

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    I seem to recall DevilsSon saying the westside recommends being able to GM at least 60% of your squat. Although if GMs aren't regularly trained as a heavy assistance exercise I'm not sure if that's meaningful.
     
  10. PCP

    PCP Guest

    Needs to be higher than that since these are based off of equipped numbers. I would say raw it is going to be closer to the 90% range. This may sound crazy if you don't do a lot of good mornings but you can move A LOT of weight with this movement.

    Don't worry about percents just go as heavy as you can with reasonably good form
     
  11. DEVILsSON

    DEVILsSON Black Belt

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    That's extremely far fetched, I have seen 60% of 1RM figure used by WSB which seems about right.
     
  12. DEVILsSON

    DEVILsSON Black Belt

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    Response above.
     
  13. PCP

    PCP Guest

    I don't know, I can GM about 90% of my max raw squat with a rounded upper back (head down) and fairly solid form. I am talking about one rep here. 60% would be VERY VERY easy and I could probably manage around 10 reps or so at that weight.

    There are videos on youtube of Westside guys doing good mornings with 700+ lbs so I don't think it's far fetched really. I definitely believe they are talking about 60% of an equipped max. So a 1000lb squatter will do good mornings with 600lbs or so. A lot of these guys probably don't even know what their raw squat is.

    edit: are you sure we aren't talking about the percentages they use for speed box squats? its 60%, and i couldnt find any articles by louie talking about percentages and good mornings
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 5, 2010
  14. James Fuller

    James Fuller Amateur Fighter

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    Wow, thanks guys! Am taking it all and tweaking it a bit based of what is being said and will post the final version. Well I am kinda obsessed with 5x5 because 1. Have seen huge gains in my big three after doing a modified starr 5x5 for the last 9 weeks or so 2. Thought that's typical/optimum for strength gains and didn't know enough to change it all on my own! 3. My form/technique on the squat dl and bench were terrible and I wanted to focus heavy on those three lifts in order to bring my tech to the point I could be lifting as heavy as I needed to to grow in the future. But I am not married to it by any means, I am alwaya down for a change of pace.

    Thanks esp to devilsson and pcp for the multitude of ideas. And yes I remember that discussion on flat vs incline: I was way too narrow minded about it lol. Going to start doing them now try to pinpoint exactly where my weak link is in that lift.
     
  15. James Fuller

    James Fuller Amateur Fighter

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    Ok guys here is what I have come up with after reading your guy's comments and going through a trial week. Stuff thats in bold is primarly for grip:

    Day 1- Push
    Squat 5X5
    Overhead Press 4X5
    Hyperextensions (unweighted) 3X15
    'Gi" Pullups 3x10
    Fingertip Planks 3xfailure

    Day 2-Pull
    Deadlift 5X5
    Bent Over Rows 4x5
    Incline/Flat Bench (alternate weeks) 3x10
    Forearm Curls 3x10 (each way)
    Fat grip Chins 3x10

    And of course core each day. Which is (typically) done heavy less than 10 reps with heavy height as I look to develop a STRONG core in these lifting sessions and let my mma training handle the endurance.
     
  16. Searcher

    Searcher Yellow Belt

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    I wouldn't do gi pull-ups alone on that day. You will work your back a lot less since grip is your limiting factor. Maybe do two sets of normal weighted pull ups or chins, and then 2 sets of gi pullups.
     
  17. James Fuller

    James Fuller Amateur Fighter

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    ok first off my grip is what I am concentrating on working with those exercises any additional pull/push benefit is just that...a bonus. My grip is my number 1 concern with those exercises which is why I said as much in my opening. And I am cycling my high rep support exercises on their opposite days for balance as doign them when I am already lifting 90% of my 1 rm 5x5 is overkill. That is why a pull exercise ends up on my push day and vice versa.
     
  18. DEVILsSON

    DEVILsSON Black Belt

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    PCP I dont know if at the time it was in reference to a geared squat or not although I would not be surprised that it was indeed for a geared squat. I know for sure it was not in reference to DE.
     

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