International Russia/Ukraine Megathread V15

[aries]

Its not a matter of trust its just basic political relations.

Like I said I wouldn't care if he was lying I want Russia to take as much as Ukraine as possible I'm stating the obvious and countering the misinformation. Russia doesn't want to rule a hostile population of Nazis as much as denazification would make me happy its impractical from Russias perspective. They want Eastern territorys. Racing to a large nations capital in the early days of a war in lieu of your actual territorial gains is designed to collapse the government and end the war.

Calling Ukraine an artifical state doesn't mean it shouldn't exist btw.

I'll tell you why Putin wants Ukraine, to stop accession to the EU. NOT NATO, NATO membership is a smokescreen (which was clear when Finland and Sweden joined NATO as a direct result of the invasion). Just look at what's going on in Georgia for evidence of how important stopping Ukraine, Georgia or any ex-Soviet states joining the EU is for the Kremlin. Why? Because if they bloom into the next Poland, Russian citizens are going to start asking, why can't we have a bit of that too? Putin cannot allow that to happen.

Current polls indicate that Ukrainians desire to join the EU is anywhere from 75% to 91%. Georgia is similar at 80%. It's clear what Putin is trying to stop.

 

[filthybliss]

I'll tell you why Putin wants Ukraine, to stop accession to the EU. NOT NATO, NATO membership is a smokescreen (which was clear when Finland and Sweden joined NATO as a direct result of the invasion). Just look at what's going on in Georgia for evidence of how important stopping Ukraine, Georgia or any ex-Soviet states joining the EU is for the Kremlin. Why? Because if they bloom into the next Poland, Russian citizens are going to start asking, why can't we have a bit of that too? Putin cannot allow that to happen.

Dude, Putin invaded Ukraine in 2014. How likely was Ukraine to join NATO or militarize back then?

This NATO talking point is just an asspull excuse that tankies and republicans spam. They find something new everytime to excuse Russian terrorism. It was the "Maidan Coupe" back in 2014 or the Neo-Nazi uprising. There is always something that they cook up. Now, NATO is the buzzword.

Lets forget the fact that you have to send out an application to get accepted into NATO too.

 

[aries]

Dude, Putin invaded Ukraine in 2014. How likely was Ukraine to join NATO or militarize back then?

This NATO talking point is just an asspull excuse that tankies and republicans spam. They find something new everytime to excuse Russian terrorism. It was the "Maidan Coupe" back in 2014 or the Neo-Nazi uprising. There is always something that they cook up. Now, NATO is the buzzword.

Lets forget the fact that you have to send out an application to get accepted into NATO too.

You sound like you are questioning my reason but you are saying exactly what I'm saying... confused....

 

[filthybliss]

You sound like you are questioning my reason but you are saying exactly what I'm saying... confused....

Nah, you are partially wrong. Its not even about Ukraine wanting to join the EU. Its about Ukraine having actual autonomy as a state. It is that simple. Russia just wants Ukraine to be a satellite state that remains submissive to its commands.

When you concede stuff like it was actually membership into the EU that caused Putin to go ballistic, you are giving people like @ferrisjso too much charity. Then, he'll say its the West/EU overstepping that caused Putin to go ballistic.

 

[aries]

You sound like you are questioning my reason but you are saying exactly what I'm saying... confused....

Nah, you are partially wrong. Its not about Ukraine wanting to join the EU even. Its about Ukraine having actual autonomy as a state. It is that simple. Russia just wants Ukraine to remain as a satellite state that remains submissive to its commands.

When you concede stuff like it was actually membership into the EU that caused Putin to go ballistic, you are giving people like @ferrisjso too much charity. Then, he'll say its the West/EU overstepping that caused Putin to go ballistic.

Ok, I see what you are saying. I think we'll agree to disagree then. Because the EU means autonomy from Russia. It's non-negotiable then. The reason EU membership is so important is because the EU is way more powerful than just Ukraine by its lonesome. Joining the EU is the mechanism by which Ukraine and Georgia can be economically free of Russia. Once they are in Putin/Russia lose a lot of leverage.

The Maidan revolution was also about joining the EU. All roads come back to joining the EU. The Neocons liked to pretend it was about Russia feeling threatened by having a NATO member on Russia's doorstep but that was clearly nonsense since Finland joined up.

The EU aren't overstepping, the people of Ukraine and Georgia have made it absolutely crystal clear, they want economic prosperity or at least the chance of it. And they know that is not going to happen when they are more closely aligned with Russia. I can't see any reason that Ukraine would not end up as successful as Poland, the fastest-growing economy in Europe. And that will reflect really badly on Russia itself because so many Russians do see Ukrainians as very closely related to them. If Ukraine can have prosperity then why can't Russia? Putin and the oligarch elite cannot allow that to happen.

It's way more than just Ukraine remaining a vassal state of Russia. In my eyes it's about not allowing Ukraine to succeed and shine a bright light on the economic plight of the average Russian. Putin has successfully neutered the average Russians interest in politics but economics is always going to matter to them. That's why Putin and the Oligarchs are so threatened by the EU.

 

[filthybliss]

Ok, I see what you are saying. I think we'll agree to disagree then. Because the EU means autonomy from Russia. It's non-negotiable then. The reason EU membership is so important is because the EU is way more powerful than just Ukraine by its lonesome. Joining the EU is the mechanism by which Ukraine and Georgia can be economically free of Russia. Once they are in Putin/Russia lose a lot of leverage.

The Maidan revolution was also about joining the EU. All roads come back to joining the EU. The Neocons liked to pretend it was about Russia feeling threatened by having a NATO member on Russia's doorstep but that was clearly nonsense since Finland joined up.

The EU aren't overstepping, the people of Ukraine and Georgia have made it absolutely crystal clear, they want economic prosperity or at least the chance of it. And they know that is not going to happen when they are more closely aligned with Russia. I can't see any reason that Ukraine would not end up as successful as Poland, the fastest-growing economy in Europe. And that will reflect really badly on Russia itself because so many Russians do see Ukrainians as very closely related to them. If Ukraine can have prosperity then why can't Russia? Putin and the oligarch elite cannot allow that to happen.

It's way more than just Ukraine remaining a vassal state of Russia. In my eyes it's about not allowing Ukraine to succeed and shine a bright light on the economic plight of the average Russian. Putin has successfully neutered the average Russians interest in politics but economics is always going to matter to them. That's why Putin and the Oligarchs are so threatened by the EU.

Ukraine wanted to make more alliances that doesn't neccessarily mean that it wants to distance itself from Russia. They can remain trade partners with EU and Russia. It doesn't default to being mutually exclusive. Russia perceives this as a "threat" or a "form of abandonment" like a paranoid girlfriend that wants all of your undivided attention.

 

[aries]

Ukraine wanted to make more alliances that doesn't neccessarily mean that it wants to distance itself from Russia. They can remain trade partners with EU and Russia. It doesn't default to being mutually exclusive. Russia perceives this as a "threat" or a "form of abandonment" like a paranoid girlfriend that wants all of your undivided attention.

You are right, they could maintain economic ties to both. So why then is Putin so threatened? To me it makes sense that they cannot allow Ukraine to turn into an economic success as part of the EU. Or else why not allow it to happen? It's clear Putin is doing everything he can to stop Ukraine or Georgia becoming part of the EU. It's not just a paranoid girlfriend, it's a paranoid wife who doesn't want to lose both her husband and her bit on the side.

 

[Strychnine]

Beatings will continue until moral improves.

What an absolute $hit army.

 

[SandisLL]

Maidan stuff was cos possible trade deal with EU.
Guys like pirosko or yanny never wanted to join EU, just to have good trade deal. Cos why for ex soviet oligarchs AML measures are neccessity.....

 

[SandisLL]

It isn't mandatory real deal 100% but it might be possible that Ukr maybe had asked to deliver anti infantry mines etc. I think that President Biden will sign paper. Looks that most likely they had asked this stuff also from europe for friendly peaceful exercises.