Rumor: Ryan Hall on TUF 22

Adcc is also only a single event only every other year only a select few get to participate in.

If you're trying to imply that carlinhos' rule set doesn't have the biggest influence on the training habits of most jiujiteiros today, youed be wrong.

sport BJJ does not equate IBJFF

there are plenty of tournaments, especially in no gi platform that doesn't goes with IBJFF rules. IBJFF while is big, it isn't the end all, be all.
 
Well, hopefully Ryan doesn't boast about his chin and literally beg someone to try and KO him.

that wasn't the smartest move, but the end result was one of the funniest things to come out of TUF.

the whole scene was hysterical.
 
I think it's very calculated and that he's pretty comfortable finishing from the saddles and ashi garamis as well. I've been heel hooked by him from basically every leg position and he was clearly really comfy in all of them. When he was discussing the 50/50 the producers actually didn't show any. All of those training heel hooks were from other leg entanglements. Maybe it is stupid to read too much into it like this but I really think he's choosing to do this on purpose. He even said after the fight that there are things that he's way more dangerous with than heel hooks (which is true) but that right now he's just going to let people think that's his thing.

I bet the fact that it's so easy to dive for the legs counts too. Ryan has great triangles/back attacks/tons of other stuff, but they require the fight to go to the ground first. Going for heel hooks he doesn't need to wrestle or even clinch.
 
that wasn't the smartest move, but the end result was one of the funniest things to come out of TUF.

the whole scene was hysterical.

And if I remember correct he had already lost anyway, so it was the only reason anyone remembers his name
 
sport BJJ does not equate IBJFF

there are plenty of tournaments, especially in no gi platform that doesn't goes with IBJFF rules. IBJFF while is big, it isn't the end all, be all.


You're switching really fast between a technical definition of sport, and the colloquial stereotype of 'sporty' jiu jitsu, which is undoubtedly bound up in popular strategies optimized for success under International Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Federation sanctioned tournament formats.

I'm just sitting here thinking people are paying too much attention to the fact that Ryan has a really sporty background, and not enough attention to what he's actually doing in the ring.

But w/e.
 
It should not be discounted that someone who has been so vocally against a cult-like organization might have some less that totally honest detractors. I would caution against a witch hunt until names are named.

I don't mean to imply that anyone in particular is a TLI shill though.
 
I bet the fact that it's so easy to dive for the legs counts too. Ryan has great triangles/back attacks/tons of other stuff, but they require the fight to go to the ground first. Going for heel hooks he doesn't even need to wrestle or even clinch.

Yeah I think so also. He could definitely take the back or snag brabos or side chokes, or triangles, any number of things he's really good at. But he seems to be making a point of doing what he's doing. It may have been Stephan Kesting but when Hall first got into MMA he had an interview where he was on the other side of the coin. he said something like "I got on the guy's back and realize hey this is an MMA fight not a BJJ match so I let go of the choke and started punching the guy until the fight was over."

On TUF he seems to be talking a very different perspective about "making stuff that shouldn't work in MMA work" and I think it's really cool. He has a lot of the skills on the ground and in other areas of fighting but he's repping for us bjj guys really well right now.
 
Didn't the TLI reveal all the dirty secrets of their detractors? Like Avellan revealing that one of the affiliates that betrayed them is a whoremonger despite having loads of kids?
 
You're switching really fast between a technical definition of sport, and the colloquial stereotype of 'sporty' jiu jitsu, which is undoubtedly bound up in popular strategies optimized for success under International Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Federation sanctioned tournament formats.

no, that's your definition. Sports BJJ to me just means any BJJ that isn't MMA or self defense oriented.

And people who were giving Ryan shit about this transition into MMA is just that.. his BJJ is too "sport" oriented and his 50/50 won't work in MMA.
 
This is the first I've heard of Ryan Hall hurting people. Seems to be several examples, are there any public examples with actual names attached? I've always liked him based on his videos and anti-TLI campaigning, it would suck if it turns out he's a d-bag.
 
no, that's your definition. Sports BJJ to me just means any BJJ that isn't MMA or self defense oriented.

And people who were giving Ryan shit about this transition into MMA is just that.. his BJJ is too "sport" oriented and his 50/50 won't work in MMA.


Yeah, and that's just your definition too.

Yes, yes, I know the score, everyone loves to adopt highly abstract and carefully modulated axioms when debates roll around, if it suits them. But little Carlos is, of course, the biggest game in town. Its only natural for trends there to pick up bandwidth in the popular discourse. So when people think of 'sport jiu jitsu', they tend to be thinking of popular strategies optimized for success under International Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Federation sanctioned tournament formats.

I'm just saying, we wernt having these conversations when palhares was making drumsticks, even though its pretty much the same thing. At best you might have occasionally had someone bring up marcin held's sick DHG.

That's basically what I mean when I say everyone's worrying too much about his backgrounds. He's been training for mma for years now since leaving competition. The games changed.
 
are you fucking retarded?

do you tear people's knees if they go harder than you think they should? or do you tell them to calm the fuck down? because if you injure someone for going too hard without talking to them first, you're the one that deserves to get smashed to shit.

if what the guy said is true, i hope ryan gets his shit pushed in, as well as any idiot fanboy who thinks this kind of behavior is acceptable. being good at BJJ and famous in the community does not somehow excuse you for being an absolute asshole.

Why are you so angry? And so quick to believe some randoms story?
 
Long thread but I'll throw my input out there for the sport bjj argument. I think when rolling with points in mind over submissions it is more sport bjj and simply looking to grind out tournaments. And we all know there are gyms that coach for points over submissions
 
Why are you so angry? And so quick to believe some randoms story?

http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f12/whats-up-ryan-hall-fight-video-inside-2535305/index4.html

Post 105 and 111

Do i look like a hater at that time?? Nope...Now, go figure why i changed my mind since then...

I will not post any gym or people name, forget that. Feel free to believe me or not, i dont care, someone asked me why i want him to be ko'ed badly, i have answered why and this will be my last post about it.
 
I don't think points automatically means sport and sub only automatically means good for fighting. Points reward dominant positions that will absolutely help you in a fighting situation. Sub only can hurt you in a fight. Abondoning dominant positions and fishing for subs after being curled up in a ball for 10 minutes will get you stomped before you get a chance to get a submission.

I don't like putting either style in a box and making it a rule. I would hate to fight Keenan as much as I would hate to fight Eddie Cummings.
 
Well this thread certainly took a turn. I debated saying anything here, but I'll just say this.

I've trained with Hall about 5-10 times in the past 5 years. He has always been awesome to me, and gone above and beyond to be a great host/training partner/instructor/etc---Even when he had very little or nothing to gain from me being around.

He was one of the first grapplers outside of my own academy that helped me out in a significant way, and I'm thankful for that.

I can only speak for myself, but my personal experiences with him and his students/staff at his academy have been very positive.
 
Yeah, and that's just your definition too.

Yes, yes, I know the score, everyone loves to adopt highly abstract and carefully modulated axioms when debates roll around, if it suits them. But little Carlos is, of course, the biggest game in town. Its only natural for trends there to pick up bandwidth in the popular discourse. So when people think of 'sport jiu jitsu', they tend to be thinking of popular strategies optimized for success under International Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Federation sanctioned tournament formats.

I'm just saying, we wernt having these conversations when palhares was making drumsticks, even though its pretty much the same thing. At best you might have occasionally had someone bring up marcin held's sick DHG.

That's basically what I mean when I say everyone's worrying too much about his backgrounds. He's been training for mma for years now since leaving competition. The games changed.

I think you got this wrong, and I think your impression is clouding your judgment.

when people say "too sporty" normally they talk about inverting 50/50 stff, well thats because they got the wrong impression of 50/50, they got the same impression you have when people talk about sporty 50/50, which is normally based on ibjff 50/50, and that is wrong, 50/50 is the position, that same position could be play in many different ways depending on the rule set, ryan isnt the first one to be pulling sick hh from 50/50, a few years ago serginho pulled one TUF Brazil, he was actually laughing when he got there. I think if there is a definition of a sporty bjj playier going to MMA is serginho, hell I dont think he ever did ADCC. when some poster came out with the brillant analogy of ryan's bjj not working for mma because of the 5050 inverted shit dont work in mma, a couple of posters and me jumped in calling him up on the ridiculousness of his appreciation. IBJJF is just basically a rule set (besides being the biggest org) but is not jiu jitsu, is not even Gracie Jiu Jitsu, there are many other orgs as you know, and they are all sporty, you will the same type of "sporty" crap in every org, naga grapplers quest, metamoris ebi adcc polaris etc etc etc, people going upsidown and fighting with their asses looking at the ceiling for the entire fight, are those not "sporty" in your eyes because they are not IBJJF? it has nothing to do, sport bjj is sport bjj, some rules are more restrictive than others, yet it is uterly ridiculous to think that a black belt whos being doing IBJJF tournaments for his whole life would not be able to use hh from 50/50, its right there, some people are better than other at it, theres no doubt, but the finish is actually the easist part of the job, the hard part is get in there without being ktfo, funny thing, it seems the "sporty" crap is actually pretty useful even to entry the position, and of course it is, its kind of hard to try punch someone while you are fighting not to get swept.

Just as head kicks and "exotic" striking techniques are making their way into modern MMA, I see no reason why some of the most sporty stuff in bjj couldnt, marcin held has been proving it for a while now. I believe that SOME (not all of course) of the bjj sporty arsenal could be very useful, specially in a time when most fighters are just a replica of each other, everyone wrestles, everyone boxes, and everyone has solid ground game. Well its time to innovate, and wrestlers/boxers are really not that used to deal with this type of moves, I think ryans has a way better shot keep on doing "sporty" crap vs a strong wrestler/boxer than going for a regular td or even worst, trying to strike his way to a Win...
 
http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f12/whats-up-ryan-hall-fight-video-inside-2535305/index4.html

Post 105 and 111

Do i look like a hater at that time?? Nope...Now, go figure why i changed my mind since then...

I will not post any gym or people name, forget that. Feel free to believe me or not, i dont care, someone asked me why i want him to be ko'ed badly, i have answered why and this will be my last post about it.

1. The post you quoted wasn't directed towards you
2. Post 105 and 111 don't show anything really
3. That's the excuse everyone gives when they're shoveling bullshit
 
The guy who is arguably best in the world at 50/50 is making it work in MMA against a couple of blue/purple belt level fighters. That doesn't mean it's suddenly validated.

That said, I was watching closely and Ryan seemed to do a really good job of keeping himself safe from strikes when he was in 50/50 or rolling under.

does that mean that the technique is invalid or that the fighters are not good enough to use the technique? the are a ton of UFC fighters who are not better on the ground than a purple belt, there are a ton of wrestlers that do not focus that much on "sporty" crap... you know that shit dont work, I'll just punch him in the face attitude... just to find out that even though they thought it wouldnt work, it does...

trying to punch you way out of 50/50 vs a skilled hhooker is about the worst idea you can have...
 
I've been to Ryan's gym a few times, and been to a seminar of his. Cool guy gave me some critique on a good match I had with a student of his. I have never seen anything wrong, or had any experience to allow myself or someone else to say that he is a "dick".

In a roll if someone is going crazy hard and being a dick, why are you surprised when you get hurt or the other guy starts going hard as well. How about don't depend on someone else to take care of you when you're being a douchebag.

On topic: Looking forward to the TUF 22 season. If that cast I saw is accurate the american team has some interesting prospects.
 
Yeah, and that's just your definition too.

Yes, yes, I know the score, everyone loves to adopt highly abstract and carefully modulated axioms when debates roll around, if it suits them. But little Carlos is, of course, the biggest game in town. Its only natural for trends there to pick up bandwidth in the popular discourse. So when people think of 'sport jiu jitsu', they tend to be thinking of popular strategies optimized for success under International Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Federation sanctioned tournament formats.

I'm just saying, we wernt having these conversations when palhares was making drumsticks, even though its pretty much the same thing. At best you might have occasionally had someone bring up marcin held's sick DHG.

That's basically what I mean when I say everyone's worrying too much about his backgrounds. He's been training for mma for years now since leaving competition. The games changed.

Doesn't Marcin held go for leg locks and tornados instead of DHG?
 
I've heard some negative things about Ryan secondhand from someone who trained at 50/50 sporadically, basically that he has a mean streak. I also know of an incident at a gym in my association, but from the story, Ryan wasn't the one at fault. Although, from what I understand, that incident was partly caused by the other person (a known hothead) trying to go hard and Ryan turning it up.

Personally, he seemed nice the one time I met him.
 
Just as head kicks and "exotic" striking techniques are making their way into modern MMA, I see no reason why some of the most sporty stuff in bjj couldnt, marcin held has been proving it for a while now.

Hall addressed this on an interview after the episode last night. He said that he thinks you see some of the more traditional martial arts or specialized techniques being able to get more play in mma today is because the overall training is so much more refined than the early ufc days. So someone can work on a bunch of skills to get themselves into position to work a 5050 hh or a front kick to the face and they aren't fucked if it doesn't work. And that "everything has its time and place" under the right conditions.

As far as "sport bjj" people have sworn up and down for years that "deep half or 5050 or inverting (or whatever thing they don't like) will get you killed in mma." But I can't think of any examples of someone doing a "sport bjj" technique or movement and getting t/ko'd from it.

Marcin Held stays safe in tornado guard and inverts on lots of fighters w/o taking heavy strikes. Wilson Reis has played deep half to perfection. So has the Nogueira brothers. Lucio Linhares played x guard against Palhares and didn't take damage. Ryan Hall has gone through 2 TUF fights and spent time on the bottom in leg entanglements and hasn't taken damage. Mitch Clarke hit a brabo from bottom side control in the ufc and ate no punches. Tony Ferguson and Dustin Porier slide to the bottom all the time to finish brabos. Ronda Rousey uses a kesa gatame headlock on the ground and her back doesn't get taken, and many bjj schools teach that it's asking to get your back taken. Joe Lauzon is constantly playing butterfly guard on the bottom. Nate Diaz rides mounted triangles and guillotines from the top to the bottom and stays safe. Paul Sass' UFC wins are basically triangle guard pulls.

Palhares pulls for leg attacks and he's been made to pay for it but usually makes it work. Shogun Rua has gone to deep half his entire career. Sometimes it hasn't worked. They are the big examples where I've seen them eat hard shots from being on their back.

Overall I just don't see the "sport bjj" will get you killed in mma theory actually playing out that way.
 
Why are you so angry? And so quick to believe some randoms story?

i get pissed pretty quickly when people start defending very questionable behavior on the basis of something completely irrelevant - for example, saying a guy deserved to be injured in training by ryan hall, for nothing other than the fact that it was ryan hall. being great at jiu jitsu doesn't mean you should be forgiven for any and all bullshit you pull.

who said i believed the story? i wasn't ranting about the alleged incident, but about the fanboy who will spew such bullshit simply because he worships the ground that hall walks on. it's no different than people who are fans of palhares and make up dumb excuses for him after every infraction, again and again.

if ryan did that, he's a major jerk. being a monstrous jiu jitsu fighter doesn't somehow exonerate him.
 


I dont know if my point is getting across clearly or not. Yes there are indeed other orgs. but you know, people have limited time to train. if they have a certain strategy they use in one org, they will want to try and adapt that same strategy to other venues too. i think if heelhooks were legal in carl jr's outfit, you would definitely see a major shift in how people approach the 50/50 or other footsie type situations.

i dont know what impression you think i have of it, if you check my post history you'll probably find ive been tooting the leg lock horn for a long time now. ive argued in the past long before any of this that leg entanglements are superior for defending yourself from strikes compared to closed guard. i go into threads about sweeps and say leg attacks are the best 'open guard'. thats partly trolling, since if the guy was looking for competition advice it doesnt really help to recommend moves youre not allowed to do. but i do believe its true. ill bet i even know that exact thread youre alluding too, what with the guy who was saying that hall would get in trouble by 'just reaching' for a leg attack. i could tell you the same thing i could tell him, that hall wasnt 'just reaching', but rather, hit a really nice entry, established control, disrupted his opponents base, amd got the finish.

certainly, there is a metagame aspect to all this as well. even if you are not using an ideally anti-fragile strategy, if you are one of the few people who are doing it, you have an information advantage over everyone else. you have experience in dealing with all the tricks, but they dont.

it can also be a question of shifting equilibriums. for example, buchecha and rodolfo. neither of them lile to pull guard, so their matches tend to be decided by whoever gets the first take down. if they specialized for each other, you would probably see an escalating focus on more td training while relegating other aspects to a lesser concern. this sort of dynamic can keep going far past a practical level untill at some point one might get the idea to try and take advantage of the disparity by shifting specialization to some other area. and then so on and again.

thats not to say that any given tactic, technique, or procedure is equally essential or adaptable to wider objectives, but that never the less given a long enough time frame even near skill capped competitions can experience shifts in metagame for reasons other than the new strategies ultimate virtue.
 
I trained at limpy Lloyds back in 2007/2008. Lloyd only taught a few of the lower classes a week, leaving Ryan, Seph Smith, Danny Ives, Mike Easton, and a few other guys to teach.

Ryan was awesome. He was not only super laid back, but had this incredible attention to detail and an unusual ability to break complex shit down so that even the lowest white belt can understand. Honestly, I can't say enough about how awesome he was. If I still lived in the area, I would sign up for his school in a heartbeat.

The guy is the ultimate nerd. Not a bad bone in his body.
 
Hall made me a littler nervous this fight. I fear Hall will lose in the first 30 seconds of one of his fights by getting KO'ed with his bad stand up.

On a semi-related note, I wish this show was just called, "TUF 22: Ryan Hall vs. a bunch of europeans," and it was just him heel hooking dudes every week.
 
Never trained with or met Hall.

However, close friends of mine who came out of Virginia confirm the stories of Ryan Hall are in line with what people say on message boards.

He is an arrogant douche bag who has purposefully injured training partners even at his own gym. I was told there were several instances of Ryan injuring his training partners and it culminated into a mass Lloyd Irvin-like exodus of the competition team following an incident where he purposefully injured a female team member.

From what I have gathered, he is not a good person. Those of you who go out of your way to shame those who speak out against him are simply fanboys who either read his Letter to the BJJ community, shared the pizza parlor video, or his bought/pirated his pretentious DVDs.

That story is completely false lol. Provide some names please.
 
I think the problem here is rolling with hh allow, which seems to be the case where ryan injured a couple of dudes. I really really have a hard time seeing ryan trying to purpusly injure people, now if someone gets all fired up and start to really pushing the pace, may be ryan locked a couple of hh and the person didnt tap or wanted to escape the wrong way and then, bum shit happenes when hhs are allow.. I dont know just cant picture such a cerebral dude trying to injure training partners.

There is zero chances I will believe he wanted to hurt on purpuse a female, that is ridiculous.
 
I think it's very calculated and that he's pretty comfortable finishing from the saddles and ashi garamis as well. I've been heel hooked by him from basically every leg position and he was clearly really comfy in all of them. When he was discussing the 50/50 the producers actually didn't show any. All of those training heel hooks were from other leg entanglements. Maybe it is stupid to read too much into it like this but I really think he's choosing to do this on purpose. He even said after the fight that there are things that he's way more dangerous with than heel hooks (which is true) but that right now he's just going to let people think that's his thing.

I have another theory.

I think the classic reaping heelhook isn't so good in a mma setup when guys are greased/slipery and just want to avoid the ground fight.
When I'm doing these positions I like to sweep and go to the reap (if needed, honestly since Eddie Cummings came on the big stage he changed my whole type of finish of the classic heelhook) and go to the heelhook when the opponent is on the ground.

Ryan tried to finish it on a standing opponent, without some One Leg X guard sweep. And it didn't work.

When he went to 50/50 he was able to sweep really easily (of course, the position IS a sweep granted) and finish the sub. It's also way harder to get out of the ground when you are entangled in 50/50.

In fact I kind of think 50/50 is better in MMA than the classic HH position. When the opponent tries to fight back, the ashi garami position is great, a great tool (it basicaly is the X guard system) but when the opponent just tries to run out, 50/50 is better.

The 50/50 entry is harder to get than the ashigarami (1LX pull) though..


With that said, I'm ok with you, Ryan is making a point here. Maybe to get to his opponents nerves (oh no, another palhares who is going to injure me?) and he is far from a leglock only guy.
 
I think the problem here is rolling with hh allow, which seems to be the case where ryan injured a couple of dudes. I really really have a hard time seeing ryan trying to purpusly injure people, now if someone gets all fired up and start to really pushing the pace, may be ryan locked a couple of hh and the person didnt tap or wanted to escape the wrong way and then, bum shit happenes when hhs are allow.. I dont know just cant picture such a cerebral dude trying to injure training partners.

There is zero chances I will believe he wanted to hurt on purpuse a female, that is ridiculous.

I'm a little surprised at the projection of certain personality traits that's going on here. Maybe I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're basing your knowledge of his personality on his videos? I know a lot of very smart, cerebral people and dude, some of them are complete, vindictive, pricks.

For what it's worth, in my (modest) experience with him, he can be incredibly nice and helpful, but he also has a nasty temper (I've never seen him hurt anyone, though), and can be rather self-righteous and confrontational. A number of people I have met from other places have arrived at similar conclusions.
 
I am also mad at the complete crap TUF is.

We have someone like Ryan Hall who can teach a lot better than anyone in the game and the only thing we will see is Conor's antic or drunk idiots.

TUF is a complete waste of time.
 
Well I don't think he's cutting much if any weight at TUF. He could easily go lighter.

Well I think we all need to keep one thing in mind; when it comes to jiu jitsu, people dont think it be like it be, but it do.
 
Ryan Hall didn't seem to show any sign of a temper problem in that video, at least to my eyes. If a guy was behaving like that where I'm from nobody would bat an eye when he got stomped and thrown out into the gutter. Which to be honest, would be a fair and balanced approach. Ryan Hall and his friends showed a huge amount of restraint and decorum here, I was actually quite impressed.
 
Well I don't think he's cutting much if any weight at TUF. He could easily go lighter.

Sounds like he got called on and had been fighting at 145 but still wanted to do the show. So he definitely looks like one of if not the smallest guy there.

I am also mad at the complete crap TUF is.

We have someone like Ryan Hall who can teach a lot better than anyone in the game and the only thing we will see is Conor's antic or drunk idiots.

TUF is a complete waste of time.

I'll probably watch less until Hall is fighting again. Last night to be fair I thought it was cool. Conor's training session was cool and I liked that they showed some cool training and coaching from Hall and Team Faber. Seemed like more emphasis on training than any season I can remember since way back in the early years of the show.
 
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