Rule question: is screaming in pain equivalent to a verbal tap in sport BJJ?

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by LoneLynx, Apr 27, 2019.

  1. LoneLynx

    LoneLynx Purple Belt

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  2. yetanother

    yetanother Black Belt

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    In ibjjf? It explicitly wasn't under adcc rules at least a while ago.
     
  3. efficientjudo

    efficientjudo Orange Belt

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    In IBJJF Yes, from the rulebook:
    2.2 Submission
    2.2.1 When an athlete taps twice with his/her hand on the opponent, ground, or his/herself in a clear and apparent manner
    2.2.2 When the athlete taps the ground twice with his/her foot, when arms are trapped by opponent
    2.2.3 When the athlete verbally withdraws, requesting the match be stopped.
    2.2.4 When the athlete screams or emits noise expressing pain while trapped in a submission hold.
     
  4. DatCutman

    DatCutman Blue Belt

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    I'm going to take this opportunity to ask two rules questions I had.

    If I go for a leg lock on a turtled opponent, it turns into 50/50, and they stand, is that a sweep for them? Or, if I stand, is it a sweep for me? Or neither?

    If I go for a kneebar from top, it turns into 50/50 and they stand, is that a sweep for them? Or, if I stand, is it a sweep for me? Or neither?
     
  5. efficientjudo

    efficientjudo Orange Belt

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    https://ibjjf.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/IBJJF_Rules_Book_v5.2_en-US.pdf

    5.7 Specific cases whereby advantages are no longer awarded.
    5.7.4 No advantages will be awarded for sweeps that start and end in a 50/50 guard situation.
     
  6. yetanother

    yetanother Black Belt

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  7. efficientjudo

    efficientjudo Orange Belt

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    I'm not a ref, so wouldn't want to provide the wrong answer, but I'm pretty sure it used to be the case that standing up in 50/50 just got you an advantage, thus it wasn't a points scoring sweep. The rules as written now state its no longer an advantage - to me, by extension that means its still not considered a sweep for points scoring purposes either.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2019
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  8. yetanother

    yetanother Black Belt

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    Not sure about that. I would say they get a sweep.

    If they stand it's a sweep for them. If you stand up nobody gets anything (because you stay on top).
     
  9. yetanother

    yetanother Black Belt

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    You are just mistaken. Standing up counts up as a sweep provided you where on bottom before the 50/50 got tangled.
     
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  10. DatCutman

    DatCutman Blue Belt

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    True for advantages; for sweep points though, if I'm on bottom, enter 50/50, stand up and your legs are untriangled, I get 2 points.

    Weird. For turtle it makes no sense, because you dont get points for turtle sweeps. Or is the assertion you've entered guard by forcing 50/50 from the kneebar?

    To clarify my other example, by top I mean top side control or something, past the guard. If the answer is the same, that's bonkers. . If I go for an armbar from side control top and you stand up, you dont get 2 points. If I go for a knee bar from top side control and you stand in 50/50, you get 2 points?

    Not saying you're wrong of course, I'm just flabbergasted that the rules work that way.
     
  11. Judoka1532

    Judoka1532 Judoka1532

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    This is a tough one. When I first started grappling I remember not immediately tapping but instead screaming "ahhhh". It took a while for tapping to become first nature. I think most of the time a scream indicates either severe pain and/or injury.

    I would say it depends on experience level. For legit bjj/judo competition, leave the rules the same...but for us bush league guys....it might should constitute as a tap
     
  12. yetanother

    yetanother Black Belt

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    50/50 is a guard.
    If you go for an armbar from side control and they tangle up 50/50 and stand up they get points too.
     
  13. yetanother

    yetanother Black Belt

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    In IBJJF for the top guys a scream is still a tap. I don't see why that should change for even the topmost of pros.
     
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  14. Judoka1532

    Judoka1532 Judoka1532

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    I didn't know that. I thought it would have to be a verbal tap using the words "stop" "quit" or "tap" or obviously an actual tap.
     
  15. yetanother

    yetanother Black Belt

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    "2.2.4 When the athlete screams or emits noise expressing pain while trapped in a submission hold."
     
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  16. Judoka1532

    Judoka1532 Judoka1532

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    thanks for sharing. how often does that happen in elite competition?
     
  17. DatCutman

    DatCutman Blue Belt

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    Interesting. For the top guy who wants to get back to 50/50 without risking sweep points then, his best solution is to chase the back, end up on bottom, and re-50/50. Thanks man!
     
  18. Zankou

    Zankou Bringing peace and love Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Almost never. But it does happen at lower levels because many players are too low skilled to recognize when they are irrevocably fucked and need to give up. So the ref is empowered to stop it if you are wailing haplessly.
     
  19. Judoka1532

    Judoka1532 Judoka1532

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    Yea makes sense. I kind of mentioned earlier I thought it should be protocol for rookies. I just don't know a lot about sport BJJ and i'm more familiar with judo.
     
  20. Poochie

    Poochie White Belt

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    Garry Tonon screamed out to wristlock against Matteus Diniz at 2015 Pans and the match was stopped due to the verbal submission.

    Tonon said:

    “Got Second place in open class, all the respect in the world to matheus, he put on a wristlock and I let out a knee jerk reaction yell, I yelled, that’s a tap those are the rules, disappointed in myself but it is what it is not much I could’ve done about it, gotta work on not yelling like a little girl. congratulations to matheus. I need to get some work In with Steven segal I guess. All of my teammates and training partners please never let me live this down, make fun of me forever, I deserve it.”

    https://www.bjjee.com/videos/watch-garry-tonon-vs-matheus-diniz-no-gi-pan-2015-absolute-finals/
     
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