Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Krow***, Aug 7, 2010.
I say Royler. How about you guys?
Different weight categories but Jean Jacques did roll against Renzo in ADCC 2000 and lost. Royler is notoriously more technical than his cousins so that should answer your question right there.
No disrespect: JJM is amazing.
Renzo knew what he had to do to "beat" Jean Jacques.
Renzo Gracie explains how he beat JJ Machado --- http://bjjtech.free.fr ---
Ive heard a few inside stories from JJ about Royler when they were growing up, can't say anything about it though.
Royler was a top player and RELENTLESS on the mat, always put tremendous pressure on his opponents. There is a significant weight difference here. Royler won the Mundials 6x (last i remember) and was a multiple ADCC champion. Jean Jacques won every major title in his time but there were no Mundials then. Jean Jacques also won ADCC, won most technical grappler award, beat Leo Vieira in technical fasion. Leo is also in the same weight class as Royler.
Jean Jacques style is not fit for tournaments, he pulls butterfly guard which is an automatic point deduction, so right off the back he is fighting in the negatives, which is how he lost to Renzo. Also, Jean Jacques was born with one fully developed and functional hand. He is at a great disadvantage with the GI due to grips, his game is heavily based on hooks as opposed to grips and is the reason why his No Gi game is like a spider web without using much "grabbing". He is an attacker that is always looking for the finish instead of points.
Although Renzo is a great BJJ fighter he was never considered as technical as some of the greats. He is a legend in MMA, a charismatic outspoken ambassador of BJJ and has produced some GREAT fighters both BJJ and MMA. His academy is one of the most respected BJJ academies in the US.
My opinion is biased, seeing as how I train with Jean Jacques. But training there has given me the privilege of hearing some great stories with some legendary BJJ fighters.
As for the post above, fighter A beating figher B doesnt mean he can beat Fighter C just because fighter fighter C lost to fighter B. Catch my drift?
Royler was a 4 time Mundial Champ (96/97/98/99) and 3 time ADCC champ (99/00/01).
Just to bring a reality check - in the 98/99/00/01 ADCC, a number of the matches between Brazilians and pretty much all the matches between Barra guys were worked/predetermined (based on who was senior). You don't seriously believe JJ could legitimately beat Pe De Pano or Cachorrao do you?
Pretty much all the fastest submissions were works as well (e.g. JJ's 5 second footlock on Pe De Pano in 2001).
Hughes and Horn worked their match in 2000 to get the best takedown and fastest sub award.
Renzo made Serra stand aside for Feitosa in 2001 (which was to repay Feitosa for letting Renzo win in 2000 (a 5 second Guillotine iirc to get Renzo the fastest sub for that ADCC)).
The ADCC committee had to openly change the rules by 2005 (or 2007 i think) to state anyone thought to be in a work would be thrown out and anyone in the same team in the competition would also be thrown out as punishment.
It was partially their (the committee's) fault though for not always doing the brackets properly and also banning people from stepping aside for one another - so in 2003 Rigan didn't want to fight his cousin Roger but couldn't stand aside for him and then didn't want to fight him properly (resulting in their awful match). The committee made Roger requalify for 2005 through the Brazil trials as a result, refusing to invite him.
They (the committee) also latterly tried to limit the risk by (where possible) not putting more than one person from a team in a given weight division. Even though i don't think the current generation of brazilians would necessarily work matches, they still carry the albatross of the older generation's antics around their necks.
yes, i think even non BJJ practitioners are aware of these works. to suggest that Jean Jacques could never beat Pe De Pano is just retarded. Pe De Pano has been to our academy before, you dont know what WOULD happen, but you sound convinced.
I dont like these work stories, but until im a perfect man myself I wont judge others, I know some additional "shady" adcc shit too, but ill leave that buried. They did what they did for whatever reasons. Not my biz. This has nothing to do with A vs B conversations. I don't think I ever ONCE mentioned any of the worked fights you brought up. Did you post in the wrong thread?
To be fair, i shpould have paid more respect to his run in 1999.
DonkeyKong specifically mentions one of the worked ADCC matches in his post, looking to extrapolate a conclusion from that. My point was you can't infer anything from it since it wasn't a legit match.
You specifically refer to JJ's matches in ADCC as being indicative of how tough he was. Again, my point was that since a number of them are works (maybe even the one with Leozinho too, who knows), it is hard to know what to take from his performances in 2000/2001.
For balance, i mention other works in ADCC, just so it doesn't look like I am picking on your teacher.
Eddie Bravo subbed Royler at ADCC and Bravo got his black belt under Jean Jacquest so I'm going to go with JJ
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Well Said !
That would be a fine (although I don't completely agree with the logic) assumption if it was no-gi, but I think they are talking about in the gi, which I would give to Royler.
Met Royler yesterday, nice guy, very approachable, seems like a good bloke.
^ Are you that ugly you need to block your face out? lol
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