Round 4 of Jones vs Gus

[Kvothe_the_kingkiller]

You do realize he landed less than 5 strikes after that elbow right?

yes, we agree.

1:08 leg kick
1:06 head kick
:59 glanced or missed elbow to the face
:56 jab or elbow not sure which
2 missed spinning elbows
:37 spinning elbow
:33 knee, mostly missed
:32 elbow, landed
:31 elbow, landed
:15 fucking hard elbow landed
:02 knee to the midsection landed​

 

[lolsnar]

I finally watched that fight for the first time last night and have a few things that must be said.
*Im not "with" either fighter*
First, the bias from Rogan was pretty bad. He had a hard on about the takedowns of gus.
Gus won round 1
Jones won round 2
Round 3 was pretty even.
Round 4 id give to jones because he was closest to finishing the fight.
Round 5 jones
Gus took jones down like 3 or 4 times. But he did zero after them. Gus outstruck jones 4 to 1 in head strikes. Jones was using kicks very well thru out the whole fight and landed like 5 head kicks.
Rogan made it seem like gus was totally outclassing jones in the first 3 rounds. Jones was getting frustrated in the first few rounds because the couldnt get his own tds, but he used that frustration and aggression well and landed some good hard strikes.

Also my biggest takeaway was how much this fight had been hyped as one of the top 3 fights of all time. It was a good fight but i wouldnt put it in my top 10.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

I haven't seen the whole fight in years, and I only just now watched only Round 4 of it so I could make a reply to this thread. Put simply, if that was going to be his best round, he had no right to win any of the others.

People talk about how the "last minute mattered more than the first four" and all that, so I broke it down minute by minute, with the fight audio muted and music playing instead. To my surprise, there were very few significant strikes landed in the entire round, both before and after the elbow.

Minute 1 - edge Jones (if we're being generous, 5 strikes landed to 2)
Minute 2 - even, no edge
Minute 3 - clearly Gustafsson
Minute 4 - even, no edge
Minute 5 - clearly Jones

Very few truly damaging strikes seemed to land until the elbow. Gus cracked Jones a couple times in the third minute, but until then, it was mostly sparse back and forth with the occasional insignificant blow landing. Gus handily fended off all of Jones's takedowns, but Jones tended to push the action and had better octagon control overall.

Maybe rounds shouldn't be determined based on the final minute, but Jones did more in that final minute than either fighter did in the four minutes prior. As a result, he should have (and did) win the round.

If anything, I think if we're at the point where we're breaking down 5 rounds into each of the five minutes, that's more reason to move away from round by round scoring. Pride had a lot of bad decisions but I think some sort of scoring similar to Muay Thai where you're scored for strikes landed throughout the fight and the later in the fight the higher those techniques score, may be a better system. Because it's kind of weird that in combat sports a guy can lose a fight even if the last 10 minutes of the fight are all his.


It's not even clear what should win you a round, let alone the fight as a whole.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

I finally watched that fight for the first time last night and have a few things that must be said.
*Im not "with" either fighter*
First, the bias from Rogan was pretty bad. He had a hard on about the takedowns of gus.
Gus won round 1
Jones won round 2
Round 3 was pretty even.
Round 4 id give to jones because he was closest to finishing the fight.
Round 5 jones
Gus took jones down like 3 or 4 times. But he did zero after them. Gus outstruck jones 4 to 1 in head strikes. Jones was using kicks very well thru out the whole fight and landed like 5 head kicks.
Rogan made it seem like gus was totally outclassing jones in the first 3 rounds. Jones was getting frustrated in the first few rounds because the couldnt get his own tds, but he used that frustration and aggression well and landed some good hard strikes.

Also my biggest takeaway was how much this fight had been hyped as one of the top 3 fights of all time. It was a good fight but i wouldnt put it in my top 10.

Rewatching the fight, I think it was a little bit of a 'you had to be there'. I dunno if you saw the fight when it happened but the shock of seeing Jones taken down for the first time was a big deal, and that a fighter in general could even really give him a tough time, the closest we'd got to seeing Jones challenged was him losing the first round against Machida before winning in the second. It was also before fights like Melendez vs Sanchez and Rory vs Lawler 2. At the time it was a monumental event - I'd argue it's still maybe the best fight in UFC history even if not the most action packed one, if that makes sense.

 

[lolsnar]

Rewatching the fight, I think it was a little bit of a 'you had to be there'. I dunno if you saw the fight when it happened but the shock of seeing Jones taken down for the first time was a big deal, and that a fighter in general could even really give him a tough time, the closest we'd got to seeing Jones challenged was him losing the first round against Machida before winning in the second. It was also before fights like Melendez vs Sanchez and Rory vs Lawler 2. At the time it was a monumental event - I'd argue it's still maybe the best fight in UFC history even if not the most action packed one, if that makes sense.

Yeah i think thats where people get the idea gus shouldve won (jones never being challenged like that before).

 

[Roljo]

Gus was absolutely destroying Jones. Just before the elbow, they showed a stat that head strikes were 88-18 in favor of Gus.

Jones got lucky that he landed that elbow, to that effect. As a fighter, you cannot rely on 1 strike to change the outcome of a fight. It happened for Jones in their first fight... let's see if it happens again.

Jones landed that strike a few times in the fight, also some nasty head kicks, Jones wasn't relying on one strike, it's just that Gus displayed some crazy chin in that fight

 

[Alpha_T83]

Jones landed that strike a few times in the fight, also some nasty head kicks, Jones wasn't relying on one strike, it's just that Gus displayed some crazy chin in that fight

It's not necessarily about landing it. It's more about how much effect it hand. And most of the time he "landed" was with the upper arm, not the elbow point on the temple. He landed a perfect spinning elbow in round 4, with the point of the elbow that rocked Gus. That's probably a 5% or less chance of landing that strike.

Even if he'd landed a decent spinning elbow in round 4, it wouldn't have been enough. He needed that one high impact strike, which is pretty rare.

 

[OverhandLoop]

I had Gus winning the 4th even with the elbow, but could very well change my mind if I watched again. It's been a while.

 

[Schoolboy Q]

Those who think Jones won that round based on landing a single elbow and not much else after getting torn up the vast majority of that round need need to come to terms with the fact they don't know how to judge rounds.

He needed to do a fuck ton more to secure that round. The idea he won that round is a joke.

The idea that you know how to score a fight is a joke...

 

[sssleeper]

Am I crazy for thinking a 10-10 round could be justified?

 

[sssleeper]

Also, the order of which things play out is interesting. If that elbow landed at the start, Gus recovered and tagged jones for the remaining 4 mins there'd be no question that Gus wins the round.

 

[dittohead84]

Weird how one strike wins a fight according to some people. Gus got hit, then backed up and stopped the takedown. Didnt Gus push Jones down on his butt at the end of the round? Such a fight changing strike alright.

Jones had a horseshoe up his ass that night

 

[Franklin U.]

How were you scoring the round before that nasty elbow? Imo, Gus was tagging Jones pretty well but credit to Jones for finding the elbow, while Gus was landing, he was getting sloppy with every second but Jones was getting stronger.
Lol, if that elbow didn't land, we might have had a new champion.

In one of the best fights ever, that elbow sent Gus looking for a place to fall...i remember saying there he goes, this could be it but he just barely stayed upright.
Jones 48-47

 

[bambammccoy]

yes, we agree.

1:08 leg kick
1:06 head kick
:59 glanced or missed elbow to the face
:56 jab or elbow not sure which
2 missed spinning elbows
:37 spinning elbow
:33 knee, mostly missed
:32 elbow, landed
:31 elbow, landed
:15 fucking hard elbow landed
:02 knee to the midsection landed​

Ok I guess I was interpreting your orinigal post differently than how you meant to portray it.

I flop back and forth all the time as to who won round 4 because that was Gus' most impressive round excluding the last 30 seconds or so. Yeah the elbow hurt him but not bad enough to stop Gus from having almost flawless defense even after being hurt.

It was the biggest part of the round but time wise it was such a small fraction of the round that Jones spent adequately landing shots.

I go back and forth regularly. Under current scoring it's Jones round no doubt.

 

[Fluffernutter]

Different in boxing, a knockdown means you can only get 9 points, 8 for 2
In mma no one is forced to give a 10-8 even if there are 3 knockdowns

Amazing that after 25 years we aren’t any closer to having proper judging criteria and competent judges

Heck, I'd be happy if refs knew the rules

 

[613]

Gus was absolutely destroying Jones. Just before the elbow, they showed a stat that head strikes were 88-18 in favor of Gus.

Jones got lucky that he landed that elbow, to that effect. As a fighter, you cannot rely on 1 strike to change the outcome of a fight. It happened for Jones in their first fight... let's see if it happens again.

It wasn't just that elbow. Before the big elbow Jones landed a head kick and 4 lead elbows flush. That was the start of the fight turning. The big elbow completely turned out though

 

[613]

I rewatched the fight yesterday and thought the same thing. He was getting pieced up for the first 4:15 of the round. Landing one elbow and a few follow up strikes wasn't enough to snatch it for me. I can however see how judges in the heat of the moment and atmosphere could give him the round.

Even before the big elbow, the biggest strikes of the round were the 4 lead elbows and the head kick from Jones leading up to the spinning elbow

 

[Captain Herb]

EDIT: I change my answer. The elbow was toward the beginning of a 70 second onslaught of Jones. It started with a leg kick then head kick, included about 10 elbows, and ended with a knee to the body. Yes Gus was winning the first 3:50 of the round....slightly. But it was far, far more than one elbow that (rightfully IMO) turned the round in Jon's favor.

I just re-watched it also and this is exactly right. Gus was winning slightly before Jones went off on him. It was the only clear round in the fight imo.

 

[Captain Herb]

Rewatching the fight, I think it was a little bit of a 'you had to be there'. I dunno if you saw the fight when it happened but the shock of seeing Jones taken down for the first time was a big deal, and that a fighter in general could even really give him a tough time, the closest we'd got to seeing Jones challenged was him losing the first round against Machida before winning in the second. It was also before fights like Melendez vs Sanchez and Rory vs Lawler 2. At the time it was a monumental event - I'd argue it's still maybe the best fight in UFC history even if not the most action packed one, if that makes sense.

Right. Gus was not getting points for winning, he was getting points for not losing. In the moment, everyone was blown away that someone could land on Jones, survive a takedown and even land a takedown of his own. I originally thought Gus won a close decision, on re-watching it, I have to give that decision to Jones.

 

[Alpha_T83]

It wasn't just that elbow. Before the big elbow Jones landed a head kick and 4 lead elbows flush. That was the start of the fight turning. The big elbow completely turned out though

Meh, the headkicks weren't that strong. Gus was eating them no problem.

It was the elbow. This isn't even debated.