Rolling strictly for the tap

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by StudentLoan, Apr 29, 2008.

  1. StudentLoan

    StudentLoan Banned Banned

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    Does anyone else notice this in their gyms? Mind you my gym is relatively new but I don't think this is uncommon. Most of the guys at my gym seem happy to just get the tap rather than try to improve. Very few people seem to actually play around or give up position so they have to work out of it using what we learned. Also those guys tend to be the same ones who crank the sub as soon as they get it to ensure the tap, which sometimes results in injury. Anyway, any of you guys notice this with the more advanced students at any of your gyms or does it tend to fade with time?
     
  2. Deloitte

    Deloitte Blue Belt

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    People that roll to go broke for a tap, usually have an all around shitty game. Yes it will tend to fade when they see themselves get outpositioned nonstop by people that started training the same time they have.
     
  3. Tony Manifold

    Tony Manifold Brown Belt

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    I have noticed that too. I have made an effort to concentrate on position or working specific subs that I feel I need work on. The goal is learning not winning. For example, Last night I rolled with a pretty new guy (less than a month) and I really focused on sweeps from the guard. Everytime we stop from a tap, I let him have my guard. If he made a credible attempt of the basic mount sweep, I gave it to him. A couple of times, I rolled from the mount back into guard so I could work it more. A lot of guys would have just tapped him with their favorite technique over and over. What's the point? Maybe it is the fact that I am a little older now and being the resident bad ass isn't as important to me anymore.
     
  4. alaskajits

    alaskajits Banned Banned

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    i think its a trend you will usually see in white / blue belts. some of it is the thrill of getting the tap, to working on timing and noticing openings. we have a lot of guys in our gym who will simply work to where they have the sub tight, but they dont work it all the way, they will loosen up and let you escape and keep the roll going. its usually purples+ that are rolling that way though. itll most likely start to fade when guys get closer to their purple.
     
  5. Rotaryengine

    Rotaryengine Orange Belt

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    This will just creat a positionaly weak juijitsu fighter
     
  6. Trickster***

    Trickster*** Banned Banned

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    Let me start by saying that I am not one of these people.....but Isnt the POINT of BJJ to get the tap?? We all know the rule "position before submission" so if someone is going for the tap and getting them....than he must have have good position first, and if he didnt have good position on you and still got the tap...well you suck!

    So rather than getting frustrated why dont you just take advantage of his constant submission atempts and try to gain control over him??

    I also dont understand the statement "These are the same people who crank a submission as soon as they get it to ensure the tap" Again....arent you supposed to get the tap? What do you think the person should do? Get the submission then give you time to get out of it before cranking it? (Im not saying he should go balls to the wall and try to hurt you....but he SHOULD finish the lock as soon as he gets it!!)

    No offense but you sound like a bit of a cry baby! "He always goes for the tap" "He cranked it right away" If his actions are going to make him a sub par BJJ player than take advantage of his inadequate positioning skills, get on top and sub him!!
     
  7. StudentLoan

    StudentLoan Banned Banned

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    Allow me to reiterate, I understand the point of grappling is to get the other guy to tap. However, and maybe I should've been more clear with this, a lot of these guys will usually only know one or two subs and from one or two positions. They always work to those positions and cannot do much else if swept, etc.

    I believe that you don't learn well like this as you're not expanding your game. My problem with this is that once I get to side/knee on belly/north south/mount, they can't do anything and I feel I can't really improve my game much like that either. Hence my question, does this fade with time for most students, because I'm concerned about my training partners. As for the cranking subs, no you shouldn't let the guy get out but don't try to pop the joint or tear tendons every time, maybe during a tourney but not while you're just rolling. Again, just how I feel about it.

    Also, you can't just say no offense then say anything you want. Cry baby is synnonymous with bitch in pretty much all of North America, so I don't really appreciate that. No offense but you shouldn't assume you know enough about a person to make a statement like that from reading one post.

    Thanks for the other posts though guys, anyone else?
     
  8. tucker713

    tucker713 Blue Belt

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  9. Trickster***

    Trickster*** Banned Banned

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    I agree with a lot of what you said...I dont think you will learn much if you stick to trying to get your "go to" submission. But I also think its really easy to beat these guys so let them try the same 2 subs on me all day long....they wont get them! And if they do....I really need to learn a better defense to it!

    When I roll if I can get the submission I am going to take it....unless Im rolling with someone who is inferior, or a girl....or obviously if we are just doing a flow drill. Maybe I'm not rolling right...I dunno, but if I work from position to position then work a submission you bet your ass I am going to try to finish the lock....without trying to hurt my partner obviously! I guess I am in the minority.

    I am still a white belt so maybe when I am a purple belt and the subs come easier I will let them go....but for now I need the practice finishing the subs. Everything in BJJ is repititon so for now when I get subs I am going to practice getting the tap.

    And I wasn't assuming I knew anything about you- I clearly said...you "SOUND" like a cry baby! I didn't say you "WERE" a cry baby!
     
  10. exile27

    exile27 Guest

    We were actually talking about this last night at the gym. I think it is very important to sometimes give up position so that you can work on your defense and getting back into a good position. I usually like to do this with guys that I know are better than myself, or that are bigger and stronger than me. But then if I roll with a guy that I know I'm better than, then I'll usually try to work on my submissions.

    But I agree with the TS, there are a lot of guys that I see who almost seem to not care about getting better. All they care about it getting to their one bread and butter position and throwing on their one bread and butter sub.
     
  11. Trickster***

    Trickster*** Banned Banned

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  12. StudentLoan

    StudentLoan Banned Banned

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    That was a great read, thanks for sharing.

    Trickster, I still think you're kind of missing the point I was trying to make. The final goal of any submission grappling is the submission, that's a given. However, my beef and my concern, is that I will surpass my training partners and have to only roll with the brown/black belt instructors (not that I don't like it, but it's kind of nice to know you're not being toyed with). I just wanted to know if people get past this 'phase' and from what others have said that seems to be the case.

    I'm also a white belt and I try to get the tap whenever I have a sub. But if I were to get an armbar I will only go as far as extending the arm, possibly pushing my hips out if they're really fighting it, just so the other guy knows that I have it. I won't ever yank the arm back, push my hips out all the way and try to damage the joint. Where as these guys will try to break your elbow if you don't tap fast enough, which I think is a really lame thing to do to your training partners. Even if you don't break it you could tear/strain the joint and that guy has to sit out for the next couple of classes 'cause his arm is messed up.

    About the toning it down when rolling with 'inferior' grapplers, I whole heartedly agree. I do the same, but again, the people I'm speaking of won't. They'll work to their only position, and crank out the sub, over and over again. Which goes back to my thread title, rolling strictly for the tap.

    Also, they don't tap me, not anymore, I've rolled with them enough to know what to expect and can usually sweep them to mount/side mount and do with them as I please. But they don't put up a fight once in this position 'cause they don't know how to. Usually i'll just try to stay in side mount for a while and play around, switching to mount occasionaly and/or judo side mount etc.

    P.S. just to clear it up, I'm not a cry baby, just a concerned student.
     
  13. Trickster***

    Trickster*** Banned Banned

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    OK I was misinterpreting what you were saying....I gotcha, and reading that article that was posted put it in perspective too. Im actually off to class now gotta go....
     
  14. TheHighlander

    TheHighlander Green Belt

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    There's nothing inherently wrong with building a game focused on only a few techniques. However, by the sounds of it the guys OP is complaining about aren't that skilled, but should understand that everybody has their own likes/dislikes and training style.

    If you are dominating your partners due to their own unbalanced game you can encourage them to work on other aspects via a little "tough love" -- go to their weakness and grind on them. Make them want to fix their holes. If needed, instruct them (depends on your school/instructors how acceptable this is).

    Another option is to improve your defenses against their game. Once you learn to avoid their game from the beginning you start working your way out from deeper and deeper in.
     
  15. vern_Fonk

    vern_Fonk Orange Belt

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    lol

    first, never go hard. now dont roll for the tap. next we should all just take up ribbon twirling in bjj class. you guys are hilarious. thanks for the laughs
     
  16. Here

    Here Blue Belt

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    The point of rolling in the gym is to improve technique.
     
  17. philthyjitsu

    philthyjitsu Orange Belt

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    There were a few blue belts when I was a white, that really worked with me, handing me things, and helping me progress, well until I started to give them a little more trouble, now those days are few and far between and I get my beatings... but my point is that I see it as "paying back" to help people under you. So now as a blue belt I do the same for the people under me, and one day I hope they are good enough to give me serious problems (some already do, its awesome!) and hopefully they will learn to help their team the same way.

    Tapping people is ok, but the more people you get better at your school the better you will be as well. There will always be the people who "get it" and unfortunately there will always be the ones who never will, and I doubt there are many of those past blue belt.
     
  18. Tony Manifold

    Tony Manifold Brown Belt

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    To put it into perspective, think of the guys that will a new student with the same technique for 20 minutes over and over and over. Or it might help to think of the guys that fight to win rather then learn at the gym.

    I will admit, I have been an "A game camper" in the past. I don't know if I posted it on the forum or not but back in the late 90s I was tapping everyone with ankle locks because no one knew how to defend it. I ended up ignoring guard passes for the better part of a year. Because I wanted to "win" and get the submission in every sparring session, I lost a year of progressing certain parts of my game.

    Now, I am a little bit older and not as concerned with winning in the gym. I go into every practice with a goal of working a certain techniques or a certain concept. For example, lately I have focused on half guard and controlling my opponents posture in the guard with the rubber guard or other more traditional methods. Even if I can easily take top every time, I give it up so I can go back to that position and work it some more. Related to that, if someone has a sub locked, I tap early. In a comp, I would fight it until the last possible second in hopes of seizing an opportunity to escape. In the gym, I think it is more advantageous to practice not getting caught. So rather than spend 5 minutes fighting a sub or even 1 minute, I tap when he has it and move on. I am not ashamed to tap.

    I think a distinction between being an "a game camper" as the article describes it and refining your major techniques should be made. When I used to train judo, the coaches used to say pick one Major technique and a few minor ones and master them. I think that can be down in a manner that focuses on learning and not winning. For example, a scissor sweep is one of my major techniques. It is my go to sweep. I normally nail anyone that is around my level of experience and down at a pretty solid percentage. Lately, when I do it I have tried to focus on tightening up the movements, getting in to Z guard from closed guard faster and using less muscle and more leverage to get the technique. One way to use that technique in a "learning" manner rather than a "winning" manner, could be to sweep to mount or side and then let the guy roll you back to your guard and try it again.
     
  19. StudentLoan

    StudentLoan Banned Banned

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    Thanks for reading nothing more than the title. The rest of the posts however, are very helpful. Glad to see most people either see the error of their ways or just stagnate and get left behind. Also glad to see I'm not the only one who feels this way. Just to specify one more time though, I'm not complaining about being tapped, I have no problem tapping in the gym. Like Tony, if I were in tourney I'd try my damnedest to get out of the sub, but in the gym I tap and try again.

    Now as far as dealing with these 'A Game Campers', what would you guys suggest since you seem to have some experience with them. Is it best to let them figure it out on their own once people start progressing past them or should I speak up at the risk of damaging their ego?
     
  20. ShadowNINku

    ShadowNINku SANDBAGGER BELT

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    How about after you get tapped you ask that person who
    tapped you how he got that submission on you
    and you go back to that position instead of starting to roll from the knees again as this creates mini matches
    (which only show you at about what level you are) as compared to sparring with the sole intento to get messy and learn
     

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