Roger Gracie side control to mount analysis (vid)

[KJGould]

Actually there's no cradle involved.

Oh, maybe you call it a ber

 

[ZuZitsu**]

Roger got demoted ?

What a D*ck u are! The kid posted a video, and did a great job of doing so, for YOU to get better. He could have kept it to himself.

Dude Im a dick on here sometimes too........but in the Heavyweight forum where it belongs lol

 

[ZuZitsu**]

Also this technique seems to really work against wrestlers. Wrestlers always want to get to their knees and single leg you, but keeping your arm between their legs completely frustrates them and forces them to give up the mount, open up for a submission or turtle giving up their back

 

[KJGould]

It works well against wrestlers because it's from a wrestling position to be used on ... wrestlers. I mean the going to mount part is the BJJ spin on it and it's a solid transition, but lets not pretend the first part is a BJJ innovation. Cradles have been used for centuries to stop the guy on bottom turning into you, or turning away to their knees.

 

[Auspex]

What is the purpose of comments such as this? Some guy takes the time out of his day to analyze Roger Gracie competition matches and extract the techniques utilized therein and when he posts it, you pipe up with some smartass comment about how he's not really Roger Gracie or he's not even a black belt or whatever you were trying to imply. BS like that is just irksome and contributes nothing to discussion forums.

wow, chill out mang.

I thought it was funny.

 

[TrumpetDan]

lol I had no idea what the comment meant until somebody suggested that they thought it was going to be Roger teaching when they opened the video. I kind of assumed that everybody knows that roger wont put out any instructional videos. I changed the thread title.

 

[fiftysvn]

great insight and of course, LOVE teh slow mo breakdown of his comp footage with commentary.

thanks for sharing.

 

[Luther]

Oh, maybe you call it a ber

 

[KJGould]

Just title it Roger Gracie Style blah blah blah. Should save future confusion. Good vid though.

 

[randomg1t]

lol I had no idea what the comment meant until somebody suggested that they thought it was going to be Roger teaching when they opened the video. I kind of assumed that everybody knows that roger wont put out any instructional videos. I changed the thread title.

seriously, why won't roger put out an instructional?

has he commented on that?

 

[Fedorzilla]

Change your name from TrumpetDan to "Rogerinho." Excellent work as always. I especially like the "itsy-bitsy-spider" walking of the hand up underneath the elbow at 5:28. One great thing about the hip switch at the beginning is that you've got their arm isolated in a way that allows you to threaten lots of arm attacks if you choose.

My only hesitation (from a philosophical standpoint) is that, as a side control player, I find it a bit provocative to say that "the primary objective from side control is to proceed to the mount." In some cases (e.g., Roger) the top player has an unstoppable mount attack that makes mount the primary goal. I don't know that everyone feels like that, however, and lots of guys would just as soon attack from side or take the back.

Obviously, the BJJ points system gives you points for increasingly "superior" positions and so the great minds in jiu jitsu believe mount to be superior to side control (and the back also gives you the same "superior" position points for that matter). I just think it's interesting because a lot of people with very advanced skills prefer to attack from the side.

What are your thoughts on why the mount is superior?

 

[Luther]

Statistically there's no doubt that the mount/back mount are the most powerful position of all. The optimal strategy is then to reach them, dominate and finish from them: points reflect this.

You can win with a different strategy, of course, like triangle from inverted guard, but this is less than optimal and requires a clear skill advantage in that specific area.

 

[Fedorzilla]

You can win with a different strategy, of course, like triangle from inverted guard, but this is less than optimal and requires a clear skill advantage in that specific area.

certainly. However, I would not compare an inverted guard triangle to a side control submission in terms of likelihood. I think one of the advantages of side is actually the fact that you can attack while transitioning to mount/back.

From a statistical standpoint, are the submissions from mount really that much more dominant than side (Roger aside of course)? I would certainly think that having the back would be a much higher rate of submission, if anyone has actually run these numbers, e.g., at the mundials at blackbelt level. Interesting to think about.

 

[HardEight]

lol I had no idea what the comment meant until somebody suggested that they thought it was going to be Roger teaching when they opened the video. I kind of assumed that everybody knows that roger wont put out any instructional videos. I changed the thread title.

I may just be way out of the loop on this, but why doesn't he do instructionals? Is it because he doesn't want to give away any secrets until he has satisfied his competition thirst?

 

[Luther]

certainly. However, I would not compare an inverted guard triangle to a side control submission in terms of likelihood. I think one of the advantages of side is actually the fact that you can attack while transitioning to mount/back.

I do not compared inverted guard triangle with side control submissions. I used the inverted guard example to show how far down the ladder of positional dominance you can go and still win.

From a statistical standpoint, are the submissions from mount really that much more dominant than side (Roger aside of course)? I would certainly think that having the back would be a much higher rate of submission, if anyone has actually run these numbers, e.g., at the mundials at blackbelt level. Interesting to think about.

To get a fair assessment you should not look at the number of submissions from mount in absolute terms, rather you should compare the percentage of matches finished once you reach a specific position, and compare the results. E.g. (totally fictitious numbers):

Mount: 40% win by sub, 40% win by point, 20% escaped
Side: 30% win by sub, 40% win by points, 30% escaped
Guard: 20% win by sub, 20% win by points, 20% swept opponent, 40% passed by opponent
etc...


*Usually* when you get mount/back mount at high level it's over, either by sub or points.

 

[TrumpetDan]

seriously, why won't roger put out an instructional?

has he commented on that?

"because they are the same techniques everybody already knows."



About mount: (and it

 

[TrumpetDan]

Also, please dont think because I said i think its easier to maintain side control in the beginning of my last post to be a knock on you. Its not intended to say that "you only do side control because you are beginning"

we both know that there are many world champions that have liked side control better than mount.

I hope you understand where im going with what i said in my first post.

I actually reshot the whole lesson because in my first one I said "you SHOULD try and get mount when in side control" I reshot the whole thing just so I could say "in my opinion"

 

[Knuckles69]

I used to always say that I preferred side control to mount.

Only recently have I started to prefer mount to side control. I'd have to agree that for most people the technique, pressure and weight needed to maintain side control comes more naturally than the technique, pressure and weight needed to maintain mount. Therefore it is preferred by 'most' beginners and even some high level BJJ guys that have a good side control game.

For me I asked one of the brown belts at our school that is only 150lbs but has the nastiest mount I've ever been under what he does to maintain mount. It completely changed my confidence level in mount. I was well worth my time to understand and now I can maintain the mount on some of the best guys at my school.

 

[Luther]

but his philosophy...his jiu jitsu...the art itself and how he views it....cant be stopped. The view of mount and back as the objective, then seeing how they apply submissions on everybody is very telling of their jiu jitsu philosophies.

I know he wouldn

 

[TrumpetDan]

Thanks Luther.


If I only had one question to ask Roger, this would be it. I honestly believe he believes "if done right, nobody can defend" though i doubt he could say so on camera.

It