he hast to be one of the most underatted heavyweight champions ever. dempsey, louis, ali, foreman, tyson they all seem to be rated higher than him, even thou he lost no fights 49 fights 43 ko, he knocked ali out in 13 round in a computerized fight, plus he is proably one of the most intelligent boxers by not making a comeback, he was only 31 when he retired. he saw what happened to one of his heros joe louis trying to make comeback. never the less do i know he wouldnt be heavyweight if he was fighting today. but surely, he should be rated higher than dempsey, foreman. tyson, maybe ali number 1 marciano number 2 thats how i put it. and his record is still not matched.
rocky marciano
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quickdraw***
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I have to disagee, records dont mean shit.
Young Mitchell
Jack McAuliffe
Jimmy Barry
Laszlo Papp
Terry Marsh
Ji Won Kim
Sven Ottke
all retired undefeated.
I think scores and scores of HWs through history beat Rocky.
Klits
Lennox
Ali
Tyson
Foreman
Fraizer
Louis(in his prime)
Rocky was good but by no mean THEE MAN.
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He never fought the competition that Ali, Foreman, Frazier, Dempsey and Tyson fought. He deserves credit for being a tiny Heavyweight and for the success he had despite that fact, but he barely cracks the top 10 heavyweights of all time in my opinion. And I love Rocky Marciano.
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Everybody had to spend a lot of energy preventing Rocky from getting inside because of his strength, had trouble knocking him off of his gameplan because of his toughness, and if they were successful in both couldn't outlast him for 15 rounds because of his amazing stamina. Plus he could hit hard with either hand.
I think a top shelf Ali and Louis are on a plateau above every other heavyweight with Marciano being on that next level with Frazier, Foreman, Dempsey, Holmes, Lewis, Tyson, Johnson, and Liston. I think Marciano vs. any of those guys for 15 rounds would be pretty even and sure fire instant classics.
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Twice, he was also knocked down for a 2 count against Archie Moore. Here's the Jersey Joe Walcott knock down from the first round.
Of course, that fight ended pretty emphatically.
I dont understand why Marciano isn't ranked in the top 5 HW's of all time. He beat some of the greatest fighters of his era, Joe Louis, Walcott, Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles, retired undefeated, so he is ridiculously underated.
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Much as I admire Marciano and his blood and guts style, I don't see him besting many of the top heavyweights in a head to head.
Against Foreman, I can assure you he would not see the end of the 3 round. It wouldn't even be close.
Forget Ali, he would have absolutely toyed with him in his prime, either stopping him on cuts late or winning a lop slided decision. The Ali of the 70s would let Marciano get his foot in the door, and it would be more interesting. Still think Ali takes it quite comfortably.
Tyson and Liston both obliterate him fairly easily, though not as easily as Foreman would, owing to his longer reach and his habit of pushing smaller fighters away from their punching range.
The Frazier and Dempsey fights are within the capabilities of the Rock to come out on top. I have these as 50-50 fights.
A prime Louis vs a prime Marciano is a very interesting fight, and I don't see an obvious victory for Louis. Both Marciano and Louis owe their unbeaten record and longevity respectively, to an era that was notoriously weak in the heavyweight division. Louis was the better fighter, but I believe Marciano's much better chin and relentless attack would have eventually ground Louis down and stopped him late on.
Historically, Louis deserves to be ranked higher, but in a head to head, I'd go with the Rock. Let's not forget, he does actually hold an 8th round ko victory over a faded Joe Louis, for what it's worth. On examination, I'd say Louis was only at 70% by that stage. For example, compare that to the Tyson that fought Lewis who was only at about 30% of his peak (without exaggeration). Many boxing people are quite prepared to make a big deal out of Tyson being koed by Lewis, and yet discount the Rock's win over Louis, as the latter was washed up. Go figure.
Against Foreman, I can assure you he would not see the end of the 3 round. It wouldn't even be close.
Forget Ali, he would have absolutely toyed with him in his prime, either stopping him on cuts late or winning a lop slided decision. The Ali of the 70s would let Marciano get his foot in the door, and it would be more interesting. Still think Ali takes it quite comfortably.
Tyson and Liston both obliterate him fairly easily, though not as easily as Foreman would, owing to his longer reach and his habit of pushing smaller fighters away from their punching range.
The Frazier and Dempsey fights are within the capabilities of the Rock to come out on top. I have these as 50-50 fights.
A prime Louis vs a prime Marciano is a very interesting fight, and I don't see an obvious victory for Louis. Both Marciano and Louis owe their unbeaten record and longevity respectively, to an era that was notoriously weak in the heavyweight division. Louis was the better fighter, but I believe Marciano's much better chin and relentless attack would have eventually ground Louis down and stopped him late on.
Historically, Louis deserves to be ranked higher, but in a head to head, I'd go with the Rock. Let's not forget, he does actually hold an 8th round ko victory over a faded Joe Louis, for what it's worth. On examination, I'd say Louis was only at 70% by that stage. For example, compare that to the Tyson that fought Lewis who was only at about 30% of his peak (without exaggeration). Many boxing people are quite prepared to make a big deal out of Tyson being koed by Lewis, and yet discount the Rock's win over Louis, as the latter was washed up. Go figure.
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Because he didn't beat them in their primes. Archie Moore was 42, Joe Walcott 39, Joe Louis was old, etc.
enswell****
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Hey there, big ugly bear, what about the guy in your avatar?
Rocky Marciano vs Sonny Liston.
32 year old champ Marciano announced retirement in 1956.
Sonny Liston turned pro in '53,
was 14 wins and 1 loss(avenged) by '56,
jail and boxing ban mid-'56 to '57,
back to boxing in 1958.
How do you think that would have went?
Some might say that a prime Liston would have been the Rock's toughest opponent ever.
However, I don't think the Rock would have been prime anymore in 1958 at 34 years old.
The Rock suffered from lower back pain which was part of why he retired in addition to not having any real challengers anymore therefore no big money fights.
Some points to consider:
The Rock absolutely had the power in his right hand to put out even Sonny Liston if he hit him right on the chin.
The Rock could take a helluva shot.
The Rock did not get frustrated and kept working at cutting down his slicker opponents late in the fight. Competitive heart and mentally/physically TOUGH!
There was no quit in Marciano.
In contrast, we have proof on film of Liston quitting on his stool against Ali.
Marciano would NOT have been scared of Liston, and intimidation/fear were a big part of Liston's arsenal.
There is the Rock's bad back by 1956 though, this for a crouching fighter.
It would've been a great fight.
.
Rocky Marciano vs Sonny Liston.
32 year old champ Marciano announced retirement in 1956.
Sonny Liston turned pro in '53,
was 14 wins and 1 loss(avenged) by '56,
jail and boxing ban mid-'56 to '57,
back to boxing in 1958.
How do you think that would have went?
Some might say that a prime Liston would have been the Rock's toughest opponent ever.
However, I don't think the Rock would have been prime anymore in 1958 at 34 years old.
The Rock suffered from lower back pain which was part of why he retired in addition to not having any real challengers anymore therefore no big money fights.
Some points to consider:
The Rock absolutely had the power in his right hand to put out even Sonny Liston if he hit him right on the chin.
The Rock could take a helluva shot.
The Rock did not get frustrated and kept working at cutting down his slicker opponents late in the fight. Competitive heart and mentally/physically TOUGH!
There was no quit in Marciano.
In contrast, we have proof on film of Liston quitting on his stool against Ali.
Marciano would NOT have been scared of Liston, and intimidation/fear were a big part of Liston's arsenal.
There is the Rock's bad back by 1956 though, this for a crouching fighter.
It would've been a great fight.
.
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Hey enswell, thanks for your analysis.
As I said in my original post, I think Liston takes out Marciano fairly easily.
Sometimes, the difference between a 185lb fighter and a 215lb fighter is more than just the 30 pounds. Liston was a different kind of specimen altogether. It would be like pitting a very tough youth, against a very tough man. The man will come out on top. Liston had way too much power for Marciano, and would have kept him on the end of that ramrod jab, before delivering the blows that would have finished Marciano. It would have been as one sided as a lynching. I even think "Big Cat" Williams would have given Marciano a helluva fight.
In a nutshell, Marciano was in while the going was good (the decent fighters on the scene had all seen better days, some even at lower weights) and he got out while the going was good (before the advent of the power heavys seen from Liston onwards).
A prime Liston would undoubtedly have been Rocky's toughest opponent. Could have been part of the reason why the Rock quit the game so early in his career.
Just my opinion, but I don't believe that Marciano had the power to take out Liston. Liston was a different cup of tea to Jersey Joe, slick as the latter was. Martin knocked out Liston whilst the latter was an old man, and quite possibly involved with drugs at the time. The only other ko came via the "phantom punch" to Ali. MANY people believe Liston took a dive. I don't. It was a freak punch/occurence that caught Liston coming in, and hence the result. The punch would have taken out any other heavy in history, if they were caught with their head up coming in. Even though Ali wasn't a huge puncher, with his lightening speed and the early adrenaline coursing through him, he pulled off a freakishly snappy and well timed punch that caught a fighter who didn't respect his power. Simple.
The Rock could take a helluva shot, but against a destroyer like Liston, it wouldn't have taken many on the button to put the little fella out.
The Rock's pressure style and cutting down style that you think would have worked to his advantage, would have been professional suicide against Liston, Foreman, and Tyson, in particular. It is for that very reason that I believe all three of them would have done away with him pretty quickly.
Marciano's heart was bigger than Liston's, only because those rarities like the latter find it so easy to walk through most opponents, most of the time. Thus, their heart is found to be lacking because they haven't had to rely on it very often. Liston quit against Ali, just like Duran quit against Leonard- out of frustration. Marciano would NOT have been able to make Liston quit. He had neither the speed or the skills to frustrate Liston in that manner.
I think Marciano would have been intimidated by Liston. Liston was a TOTALLY different ball game compared to anything the Rock ever faced. How could anyone other than Foreman, and perhaps Tyson not be intimidated going in there to face a man as destructive as Liston?
I don't actually think it would have been that good of a fight. In my mind's eye, I see Marciano's courage under fire being an abiding memory if such a fight had taken place. It would have been Foreman- Frazier I for the 1950s.
It's all conjecture however, and my imagination could be way off the mark.
As I said in my original post, I think Liston takes out Marciano fairly easily.
Sometimes, the difference between a 185lb fighter and a 215lb fighter is more than just the 30 pounds. Liston was a different kind of specimen altogether. It would be like pitting a very tough youth, against a very tough man. The man will come out on top. Liston had way too much power for Marciano, and would have kept him on the end of that ramrod jab, before delivering the blows that would have finished Marciano. It would have been as one sided as a lynching. I even think "Big Cat" Williams would have given Marciano a helluva fight.
In a nutshell, Marciano was in while the going was good (the decent fighters on the scene had all seen better days, some even at lower weights) and he got out while the going was good (before the advent of the power heavys seen from Liston onwards).
A prime Liston would undoubtedly have been Rocky's toughest opponent. Could have been part of the reason why the Rock quit the game so early in his career.
Just my opinion, but I don't believe that Marciano had the power to take out Liston. Liston was a different cup of tea to Jersey Joe, slick as the latter was. Martin knocked out Liston whilst the latter was an old man, and quite possibly involved with drugs at the time. The only other ko came via the "phantom punch" to Ali. MANY people believe Liston took a dive. I don't. It was a freak punch/occurence that caught Liston coming in, and hence the result. The punch would have taken out any other heavy in history, if they were caught with their head up coming in. Even though Ali wasn't a huge puncher, with his lightening speed and the early adrenaline coursing through him, he pulled off a freakishly snappy and well timed punch that caught a fighter who didn't respect his power. Simple.
The Rock could take a helluva shot, but against a destroyer like Liston, it wouldn't have taken many on the button to put the little fella out.
The Rock's pressure style and cutting down style that you think would have worked to his advantage, would have been professional suicide against Liston, Foreman, and Tyson, in particular. It is for that very reason that I believe all three of them would have done away with him pretty quickly.
Marciano's heart was bigger than Liston's, only because those rarities like the latter find it so easy to walk through most opponents, most of the time. Thus, their heart is found to be lacking because they haven't had to rely on it very often. Liston quit against Ali, just like Duran quit against Leonard- out of frustration. Marciano would NOT have been able to make Liston quit. He had neither the speed or the skills to frustrate Liston in that manner.
I think Marciano would have been intimidated by Liston. Liston was a TOTALLY different ball game compared to anything the Rock ever faced. How could anyone other than Foreman, and perhaps Tyson not be intimidated going in there to face a man as destructive as Liston?
I don't actually think it would have been that good of a fight. In my mind's eye, I see Marciano's courage under fire being an abiding memory if such a fight had taken place. It would have been Foreman- Frazier I for the 1950s.
It's all conjecture however, and my imagination could be way off the mark.
enswell****
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I just mention that dream-fight, Marciano/Liston, because it's one that was actually possible unlike the other fellas who belonged to different generations.
As an older man, Muhammad Ali did an interview where he said the only opponent he was ever scared of was Sonny Liston.
He said Liston had such big hands, and he was scared Liston was gonna hurt him with those big hands.
After he won the fight, Ali said he wasn't scared of anyone else again.
As an older man, Muhammad Ali did an interview where he said the only opponent he was ever scared of was Sonny Liston.
He said Liston had such big hands, and he was scared Liston was gonna hurt him with those big hands.
After he won the fight, Ali said he wasn't scared of anyone else again.
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Marciano maybe didn't have the best opposition in the world, but it was still very damn good. A lot better than most "undefeated" fighters, that's for sure.
I think he was better than a lot of the "he's overrated" camp would make you believe.
I think he was better than a lot of the "he's overrated" camp would make you believe.
thelyricalmaste
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The backlash to Marciano might be a reaction to people who think Marciano was an Earnie Shavers level puncher with a chin like David Tua. His attributes sometimes get hugely overrated. If anything, Marciano was a good cruiserweight puncher, who had the stamina and activity to trouble full heavyweights. But he wasn't a cruiserweight puncher like Bert Cooper.
Marciano probably gets underrated for his intuition. His head movement was like a snake. He didn't move around just to create a moving target like Tyson and Frazier. He could sucker you with his awkwardness. He also had great punch selection, and he knew how to place himself in just the right way to make his opponents uncomfortable. I would say he is a great, great fighter, who unfortunately wasn't tested against good heavyweights.
Charles, Moore, Walcott, Layne, and La Starza were good light heavy to cruiserweights.
Marciano probably gets underrated for his intuition. His head movement was like a snake. He didn't move around just to create a moving target like Tyson and Frazier. He could sucker you with his awkwardness. He also had great punch selection, and he knew how to place himself in just the right way to make his opponents uncomfortable. I would say he is a great, great fighter, who unfortunately wasn't tested against good heavyweights.
Charles, Moore, Walcott, Layne, and La Starza were good light heavy to cruiserweights.
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Great video. Very interesting to see the detail of these old fights. To answer the TS, though, if things like the video above show how much more skilled and technical Marciano was than he is given credit for, think how much better the so-called "brawlers" of the even earlier period were. There's a reason the boxing commentators and sportswriters of 1950 who had seen both the old breed and the (then) newer breed fight put guys like Dempsey and Joe Louis at #1 and #2 and Marciano only #6. If the Rock is pretty underrated, those old timers are very underrated.
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power-athlete
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He would get owned badly against the new generation HWs like Klitschko,Tyson & Ali.
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