Roberto Duran vs Tito Trinidad at 147 Prime vs Prime

I'm aware actually. He couldn't handle Hearns combo of size, reach and power.

Duran was a great inside fighter when he could get there. But what happened when a guy wasn't willing to fight him inside and had the ability to do something else?

Duran was never unbeatable, as much as fans like to pretend he was. He got knocked out, outboxed, he quit....

I'd pick Duran over recent guys like Ricky Hatton or Lucas Mathysse etc. Brawlers, tough guys etc Thats who Duran beat, thats the sort of guy that his LW resume was built on.

But not the more skilled technical guys. Thats Durans career in a nutshell. He couldn't beat guys with good technique when he was actually active, I don't see how he suddenly does it in fantasy matchups.

eh this comment really isn't that accurate. He did beat ray. and ken buchannon was also a pretty good technical boxer.Palomino was a decent boxer as well.

I do agree that he could be outboxed but i dont think just anyone could have done it. Yea he did lose to lang but lets not forget that lang was called the gifted one and was thought of as the next superstar in boxing. He always lacked focus but he ended up taking that fight very seriously ( as you should because its roberto fucken duran). So while it was a major upset, it also showed how good lang was when he wanted to be. He ended up partying all his ability away and not taking things seriously afterweords but thats besides the point. Add in to the fact that he was much bigger than duran and its really not to bad of a loss.

Duran i think could box, hell he was boxing well against hagler and winning on points until hagler was able to turn it around at the end. In fact if i recall correctly in ray leonards book, after the hagler fight he went over to ray who was announcing and said " you box him you beat him" which planted the seeds for rays return.

yes the hearns ko was brutal and the leonard no mas are blackmarks on his career. But when you beat as many quality guys and him, moved up as many weight classes as him and won as many titles as him, i think its ok.

just for the record i think he beats tito also
 
eh this comment really isn't that accurate. He did beat ray. and ken buchannon was also a pretty good technical boxer.Palomino was a decent boxer as well.

I do agree that he could be outboxed but i dont think just anyone could have done it. Yea he did lose to lang but lets not forget that lang was called the gifted one and was thought of as the next superstar in boxing. He always lacked focus but he ended up taking that fight very seriously ( as you should because its roberto fucken duran). So while it was a major upset, it also showed how good lang was when he wanted to be. He ended up partying all his ability away and not taking things seriously afterweords but thats besides the point. Add in to the fact that he was much bigger than duran and its really not to bad of a loss.

Duran i think could box, hell he was boxing well against hagler and winning on points until hagler was able to turn it around at the end. In fact if i recall correctly in ray leonards book, after the hagler fight he went over to ray who was announcing and said " you box him you beat him" which planted the seeds for rays return.

yes the hearns ko was brutal and the leonard no mas are blackmarks on his career. But when you beat as many quality guys and him, moved up as many weight classes as him and won as many titles as him, i think its ok.

just for the record i think he beats tito also

Ken Buchanan was not a "Good technical boxer." Not on the level of the guys we're talking about here. Buchanan doesn't even rate as one of the best LWs of all time, let alone one of the best P4P.

Carlos Palomino? Rofl. is that a serious inclusion?

The Hagler fight was only close because Duran couldn't beat the bigger, more powerful Hagler by brawling. Hagler himself said he was confused for a few rounds because he "expected Duran to be Duran."
 
Ken Buchanan was not a "Good technical boxer." Not on the level of the guys we're talking about here. Buchanan doesn't even rate as one of the best LWs of all time, let alone one of the best P4P.

Carlos Palomino? Rofl. is that a serious inclusion?

The Hagler fight was only close because Duran couldn't beat the bigger, more powerful Hagler by brawling. Hagler himself said he was confused for a few rounds because he "expected Duran to be Duran."

You avoid my argument he beat SRL so he obviously can beat other ATGs, no? So you say it yourself the Hagler fight was close and Hagler was bigger and more powerful and he still had a close fight vs arguably the best MW ever? And that's ana rgument AGAINST Duran beating Tito?
Tell me what Tito would do just give me your idea of how the fight would play out.
I'm a Mayweather fan but you say that Duran couldn't do what Maidana did? Duran did everything better even though he was smaller and he was just as dirty as Maidana
 
Ken Buchanan was not a "Good technical boxer." Not on the level of the guys we're talking about here. Buchanan doesn't even rate as one of the best LWs of all time, let alone one of the best P4P.

Carlos Palomino? Rofl. is that a serious inclusion?

The Hagler fight was only close because Duran couldn't beat the bigger, more powerful Hagler by brawling. Hagler himself said he was confused for a few rounds because he "expected Duran to be Duran."

No Hagler was able to turn the fight around because Duran got tired. Not an excuse, getting tired is also part of fighting.
In the first Leonard fight, Leonard was able to turn it around for the same reason. Duran after his 30 had stamina issues.
 
You avoid my argument he beat SRL so he obviously can beat other ATGs, no? So you say it yourself the Hagler fight was close and Hagler was bigger and more powerful and he still had a close fight vs arguably the best MW ever? And that's ana rgument AGAINST Duran beating Tito?
Tell me what Tito would do just give me your idea of how the fight would play out.
I'm a Mayweather fan but you say that Duran couldn't do what Maidana did? Duran did everything better even though he was smaller and he was just as dirty as Maidana

I didn't avoid a thing other than your opinion. He could have beat other greats? I guess he just chose not to?

History doesn't support the idea of Duran beating the best of any era. Not above 135 at least.
 
I didn't avoid a thing other than your opinion. He could have beat other greats? I guess he just chose not to?

History doesn't support the idea of Duran beating the best of any era. Not above 135 at least.

Yeah, he only beat an all time great in his best weight class at two weight classes above.

Please do go through the history of the sport and name guys that moved up in weight to beat a bigger, younger guy in their best weight class who are at the upper echelon of all time great status.

So please do share the welterweights that beat a prime Monzon or Hagler, the light heavyweight who beat a prime Ali or Frazier, the featherweights who beat a prime Duran at lightweight, the lightweights who beat Robinson at welterweight, the junior lightweights that beat Pryor, the junior welterweights that beat Hearns at junior middle, the bantamweights that beat Pep at feather, the junior middles that got a win off Jones at super middle.

I can't wait for this list.
 
Yeah, he only beat an all time great in his best weight class at two weight classes above.

Please do go through the history of the sport and name guys that moved up in weight to beat a bigger, younger guy in their best weight class who are at the upper echelon of all time great status.

So please do share the welterweights that beat a prime Monzon or Hagler, the light heavyweight who beat a prime Ali or Frazier, the featherweights who beat a prime Duran at lightweight, the lightweights who beat Robinson at welterweight, the junior lightweights that beat Pryor, the junior welterweights that beat Hearns at junior middle, the bantamweights that beat Pep at feather, the junior middles that got a win off Jones at super middle.

I can't wait for this list.

Greb.

Robinson.

Floyd Mayweather.

Ray Leonard.

Henry Armstrong.

Evander Holyfield.


Off the top of my head I came up with 6. Nice try.

None of this has a thing to do with my argument either way. But this is what you do.
 
Yeah, he only beat an all time great in his best weight class at two weight classes above.

Please do go through the history of the sport and name guys that moved up in weight to beat a bigger, younger guy in their best weight class who are at the upper echelon of all time great status.

So please do share the welterweights that beat a prime Monzon or Hagler, the light heavyweight who beat a prime Ali or Frazier, the featherweights who beat a prime Duran at lightweight, the lightweights who beat Robinson at welterweight, the junior lightweights that beat Pryor, the junior welterweights that beat Hearns at junior middle, the bantamweights that beat Pep at feather, the junior middles that got a win off Jones at super middle.

I can't wait for this list.

Adonis Stevenson literally just moved up to 175 from 168 and beat an ATG in Dawson and that was just last year.
 
Adonis Stevenson literally just moved up to 175 from 168 and beat an ATG in Dawson.

I'm sure there'll be some little twist that Dawson isn't nicknamed Sugar or something.

Guys going up in weight and beating other guys is hardly a rare occurrence in boxing.
 
Greb.

Robinson.

Floyd Mayweather.

Ray Leonard.

Henry Armstrong.

Evander Holyfield.


Off the top of my head I came up with 6. Nice try.

None of this has a thing to do with my argument either way. But this is what you do.

What are you talking about? I'm asking you in the history of sport, who has moved up two weight classes to beat a younger bigger fighter in their prime who ranks roughly top 5 all time in that weight class.

It's not a difficult question. You haven't come close to answering it with this "6 off the top of your head".
 
What are you talking about? I'm asking you in the history of sport, who has moved up two weight classes to beat a younger bigger fighter in their prime who ranks roughly top 5 all time in that weight class.

It's not a difficult question. You haven't come close to answering it with this "6 off the top of your head".

You sure you said that? Because it sounded an awful lot like you said:

"Please do go through the history of the sport and name guys that moved up in weight to beat a bigger, younger guy in their best weight class who are at the upper echelon of all time great status."

Hm...
 
Adonis Stevenson literally just moved up to 175 from 168 and beat an ATG in Dawson and that was just last year.

Give you head a shake if you think Chad Dawson is top 5 in the history of light heavyweights. And that's one weight class, not two.

Absurd. Totally absurd. You're equating beating Sugar Ray Leonard with beating Chad Dawson?
 
You sure you said that? Because it sounded an awful lot like you said:

"Please do go through the history of the sport and name guys that moved up in weight to beat a bigger, younger guy in their best weight class who are at the upper echelon of all time great status."

Hm...

You see that long list of examples I gave. Asking about guys who made their mark two weight classes lower, beating all time great fighters who made their mark two weight classes higher? It wasn't a coincidence.
 
You see that long list of examples I gave. Asking about guys who made their mark two weight classes lower, beating all time great fighters who made their mark two weight classes higher? It wasn't a coincidence.

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Well then, in that case:

 
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Well then, in that case:



So Antonia Tarver is top 5 ATG in his weight class? No.

As somewhat of an aside, you think Antonia Tarver P4P is nearly as good as prime Sugar Ray Leonard? I sure as fuck hope not. SRL shits all over Tarver.

Sorry man, try again.
 
At LHW, he's undoubtedly an ATG. Aren't you the guy who said Floyd Mayweather isn't even top 50?

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Oh yeah, beating prime Sugar Ray Leonard is no better than beating prime Chad Dawson. I've learnt a lot today from Sherdog.
 
Sorry man, try again.

:icon_lol:

I don't need to convince anyone of a fact. If you need help wrapping your head around said fact, that's your problem. It's not my job to convince you. Read the past two pages as many times as you need to. Fighters moving up in weight to beat better younger guys is not new. It happened before Duran and it's happened since. Once again, that is a fact. Set whatever fantastical, circumstantial parameters you like, you can't refute fact.

Oh yeah, beating prime Sugar Ray Leonard is no better than beating prime Chad Dawson. I've learnt a lot today from Sherdog.

I suppose that's a matter of opinion. But the fact is that it happened. You said it didn't.
 
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