Rise of Werdum

Royhalibut said:
Ouch! Really? Bold prediction. Werdum looked really great and used his length very well. If he can do that again, he will have a good chance.

I expect Cain to put on much better performance though. I think this will be a different fight.
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Werdum beat him in rd 1 when Cain was still fresh....unless you're indicating he gassed on his way to the octagon....
 
KantoTerror said:
Werdum beat him in rd 1 when Cain was still fresh....unless you're indicating he gassed on his way to the octagon....
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I agree, he clearly beat Cain. I just think Cain is going to come back better and we should see a closer fight. I wouldn't be surprised if either wins the next match.
 
even in the floppy reem fight he did alright/came out on top in some of the exchanges.
 
otro said:
Maia is higher on the submission rank IMO.

Everything else I agree
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BJJ applied to MMA, Werdum is the best.

his submission wins are on another level and against excellent competition.
 
Royhalibut said:
Maybe you miss-read what I wrote. I said they were not top talents. Not weak competition. Do you beleive Russow, Browne and Nelson are top talents ?

Also you says they are weak wins and then you say it is ridiculous?
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lol @ Browne not being considered a top talent when Werdum was a massive underdog to him and people are clamoring for Arlovski to get a shot after beating him. Also, what is really the difference between weak competition and not being a top talent? Seems pretty minimal imo. Russow and Nelson were certainly legitimate top 10 wins at the time too
 
Werdum absolutely got the better of Reem striking in that fight. I thought he won the fight actually.
 
Overeem was a great loss for Werdum.

I think he finaly realized he couldn't get by on his ground game alone and that his stand up wasn't quite as bad as he thought it was which gave him the confidence to actually start using all the stuff he's been practising the past decade and more.
 
I think he is a guy who always had the tools, but needed to bring it all together. He always threw good strikes, but his footwork and defense weren't so great so and his confidence standing was really low.
 
MotorcycleMir said:
lol @ Browne not being considered a top talent when Werdum was a massive underdog to him and people are clamoring for Arlovski to get a shot after beating him. Also, what is really the difference between weak competition and not being a top talent? Seems pretty minimal imo. Russow and Nelson were certainly legitimate top 10 wins at the time too
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In the current state of the division and on his fight streak, he was regarded as a top guy. Overall at the end of his career, he will NEVER be considered a top talent.
 
Came here expecting an altitude joke... leaving unsatisfied.
 
Royhalibut said:
It can't be that easy, he has to be a great athlete, or else why wouldn't Damien Maya train the same way? He could go from mediocre to great if he had good striking.
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Maia doesn't want to hurt his opponents.
 
A big theme of this thread is people falling into the "UFC only" trap. It was the same reason why people were predicting "Nelson by KO" then "Browne by KO" when it was not a great mystery to anyone who paid attention that Werdum was better... because the BS-discrediting of SF fighters was an ingrained marketing habit and the overvaluing of random tattooed-HW-younger-white-guy-marketed-on-athleticism fighters has been a habit of the UFC for multiple years now.

Long story short... he didn't magically get 10 times better the second he came into the UFC. He was undervalued and his opponent were overvalued based on marketing. Reality overcame marketing.

PS: The Overeem fight was the single biggest example of a mental lapse ever. Werdum's lack of confidence when he was winning exchanges + Overeem being the biggest hype job in history with the "K1 champ" tag. Be careful of drawing any technical conclusions from that fight.
 
Royhalibut said:
In the current state of the division and on his fight streak, he was regarded as a top guy. Overall at the end of his career, he will NEVER be considered a top talent.
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By that logic, who is a top talent besides GSP? Even Anderson looks like crap considering the end of his career. Hasn't recorded a win over a ranked MW in over 3 years (over Chael who is also a can), barely beat Nick Diaz who was never an elite fighter, and has now tested positive for roids so all of his wins have an * beside them. Sound about right?
 
Royhalibut said:
I agree, he clearly beat Cain. I just think Cain is going to come back better and we should see a closer fight. I wouldn't be surprised if either wins the next match.
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And that theory is based on what exactly? What examples can you give of anybody coming back in an immediate rematch and doing better after losing the first fight the way Cain did? Cain can comeback against JDS because he was "just caught" and had the perfect style to beat JDS, but this is a situation more like TJ/Barao, Edgar/Penn, or andy/franklin.

Cain was beat in all aspects of the game, if he can somehow overcome that i'll be impressed.
 
Royhalibut said:
I think it's safe to say this guy is probably the top submission guy in the UFC. Just a few years ago though, his standup looked pretty amateur and unimpressive. I remember him flopping on the ground against Overeem, not wanting anything to do with exchanging.

How does a guy go from that , to complete destruction of his last few victims? Although a few of them were not really top talents(russow, nelson, browne). But the way he beat them was a big surprise.

Also, he is now 38, It's quite impressive that he seemed to improve that much over this time. You rarely see anyone re-invent themselves like this. (Robbie Lawler, though he got better in different ways)

Do you guys think he is that damn good, or was competition weak?

It can't be that easy, he has to be a great athlete, or else why wouldn't Damien Maya train the same way? He could go from mediocre to great if he had good striking.
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What you apparently don't recall, is that (IMHO) he was beating AO standing.
And that, to me was the change he needed.
Once he realised he was beating AO, he started trusting his standup more.
ANd with that, you add the fact he is one of the only guys that feel confident throwing anything at his opponents, because no one wants to deal with him on the ground.

So he can kick, knee, etc. If someone is dumb enough to take him down, they are actually doing him a favor. :icon_twis
 
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