Economy Right wing economic theory BTFO again.

[ShadowRun]

Sure, though the U.S.'s recovery is particularly strong, in part because our policy response this year has been particularly good. However you look at it, it's a false statement that the economy is tanking or that a political party is causing it to tank. I believe that we should strive to only make true statements, even if it upsets hacks.

You work in finance right ?

 

[Islam Imamate]

Right, but you can't advocate for lower taxes and deregulation, then turn around and complain about ultra-billionaires existing and doing whatever they want.

That's a good point. For decades and decades the right has pushed for at-will employment and corporate deregulation. Now that this has resulted in them getting fired for politically incorrect speech and conservative media figures being supposedly censored they are frustrated. But that hasn't led many of them to rethink their policies as a whole, rather a subset of them want simply to narrowly introduce regulation to protect them from being fired for not being PC and to force what they see as left leaning tech companies to platform their views while maintaining a generally unregulated corporate environment and keeping the balance of power in favor of employers over employees.

 

[Mr Holmes]

Of course its not the only study on the matter but if you disagree perhaps point to empirical evidence that suggests otherwise rather than assuming MW hikes are bad as an article of faith which is what a lot of folks against MW do.

I personally think the diverse living costs across the nation make it ridiculous to do sweeping MW hikes.

 

[Islam Imamate]

I personally think the diverse living costs across the nation make it ridiculous to do sweeping MW hikes.

Personally I agree, I think its best done at the local and/or state level. But my point was simply that its best to take an empirical approach to economics and when you do you can dispel certain myths like those around MW that were once common.

 

[Jack V Savage]

You work in finance right ?

Correct.

 

[panamaican]

A minimum wage worker shouldnt consider their job a salary which is the first issue. Salaries imply benefits 401ks and possibly forceable non paid overtime. My argument is unskilled workers shouldnt be paid nearly the same as an educated skilled position. Raising the minimum wage to close to almost a skilled trade wage is unrealistic. You also expect these same corporations will take this into account and raise the skilled trade wage and its not going to happen. Talk about trickle down economics.

The same empty arguments. What should a minimum wage worker be able to afford?

No one cares if if's called a wage or a salary. The point I made and keep making is that it's an unintelligent argument for anyone to say "You shouldn't be able to buy X or Y on your salary." or "You shouldn't be able to make as much as that guy." Those arguments have nothing to do with the minimum wage.

They are class arguments. That people earning a minimum wage have to maintain a particular social standing. They can't be allowed to compete with their betters in terms of lifestyle. I'm not a classist. I see no reason that a person with no skills cannot earn as much money as anyone else, regardless of skills. So, I have no time for "He shouldn't be able to do as well as that guy" arguments.

In that regard, I'll ask again: What should a minimum wage worker be able to afford?

 

[Jack V Savage]

Personally I agree, I think its best done at the local and/or state level. But my point was simply that its best to take an empirical approach to economics and when you do you can dispel certain myths like those around MW that were once common.

I don't think it's a controversial view that the ideal MW varies depending on the local economy.

 

[chrisdiaz]

The same empty arguments. What should a minimum wage worker be able to afford?

No one cares if if's called a wage or a salary. The point I made and keep making is that it's an unintelligent argument for anyone to say "You shouldn't be able to buy X or Y on your salary." or "You shouldn't be able to make as much as that guy." Those arguments have nothing to do with the minimum wage.

They are class arguments. That people earning a minimum wage have to maintain a particular social standing. They can't be allowed to compete with their betters in terms of lifestyle. I'm not a classist. I see no reason that a person with no skills cannot earn as much money as anyone else, regardless of skills. So, I have no time for "He shouldn't be able to do as well as that guy" arguments.

In that regard, I'll ask again: What should a minimum wage worker be able to afford?

Well class is defined by your earnings and so is social status so I dont see your point at all. The point of learning a trade is so your in demand in a specific field. Anyone can flip a burger or push a broom.

A minimum wage earner should be able to afford just that, the bare minimum. Its not called a sustainable wage for a reason. Thats why they are called the "lower class"

"I see no reason that a person with no skills cannot earn as much money as anyone else, regardless of skills"

I bolded the statement that I find completely insane and really dont understand how you could believe this. I guess well just get rid of any kind of education passed high school and everyone gets an even 30 bucks an hour regardless of what they do.

 

[AWilder]

The same empty arguments. What should a minimum wage worker be able to afford?

No one cares if if's called a wage or a salary. The point I made and keep making is that it's an unintelligent argument for anyone to say "You shouldn't be able to buy X or Y on your salary." or "You shouldn't be able to make as much as that guy." Those arguments have nothing to do with the minimum wage.

They are class arguments. That people earning a minimum wage have to maintain a particular social standing. They can't be allowed to compete with their betters in terms of lifestyle. I'm not a classist. I see no reason that a person with no skills cannot earn as much money as anyone else, regardless of skills. So, I have no time for "He shouldn't be able to do as well as that guy" arguments.

In that regard, I'll ask again: What should a minimum wage worker be able to afford?

Everytime I see an assumed "poor" person with an iPhone I make sure to let all my conservative friends know about on FB, IG, and Twitter.

 

[AWilder]

Also, I love threads like these that begin with a bunch of loser RW dorks speaking platitudes and parroting low IQ and misinformation then blossoms into a discussion with actual facts and discourse as the RW dorks bow out.

 

[MoparOrNoCar]

To the extent they impact supply or demand, lockdowns or unemployment should impact prices. But those impacts pale in comparison to speculation.

And no- the ships off the west coast do not have fuck all to do with gas prices. Few of the ships sitting off the west coast are oil tankers. They are cargo ships. If there was a real disruption to the oil/gas supply chain, believe me, you'd know. Please check out the UK for reference. Here, people would be shooting each other at BP's and Bucc-ee's.

What I am telling you is that all these things are inconsequential on the price of gas and oil compared to speculation.

I'm talking about the economy as a whole. Gas and oil is just one part of it. The entire economy is in jeopardy due to the terrible job that our government has done since covid started. They've basically thrown the entire country under the bus to exert authoritarian control and fill the pockets of big pharma.

Inflation steals your money while you sleep and it's creeping in much faster than the democrats lead you to believe.

 

[HeffDoesWant]

Ever seen a poor man provide a rich man with a job? Didn’t think so

Isn't that the basis for the MIC?

 

[Jack V Savage]

I'm talking about the economy as a whole. Gas and oil is just one part of it. The entire economy is in jeopardy due to the terrible job that our government has done since covid started. They've basically thrown the entire country under the bus to exert authoritarian control and fill the pockets of big pharma.

Inflation steals your money while you sleep and it's creeping in much faster than the democrats lead you to believe.

Again, this is completely nuts. The U.S. has done an exceptionally good job of dealing with the mess, and we're going to see exceptionally strong growth. Even if you don't want to bet (which is very fishy to me), make a firm prediction about real GDP growth and then we can come back and check this thread when the numbers are in.

 

[panamaican]

Well class is defined by your earnings and so is social status so I dont see your point at all. The point of learning a trade is so your in demand in a specific field. Anyone can flip a burger or push a broom.

A minimum wage earner should be able to afford just that, the bare minimum. Its not called a sustainable wage for a reason. Thats why they are called the "lower class"

"I see no reason that a person with no skills cannot earn as much money as anyone else, regardless of skills"

I bolded the statement that I find completely insane and really dont understand how you could believe this. I guess well just get rid of any kind of education passed high school and everyone gets an even 30 bucks an hour regardless of what they do.

What is the bare minimum? Empty phrases are not answers of merit.

And neither class nor social standing are determined by someone's income. That sounds very much like an argument predicated on the glorification of money. A criminal who makes more than a teacher is a higher class and social status individual because they make more money, very few people would follow that argument. The last sentence in that post absolutely doesn't make sense. An unskilled person making as much money as anyone else doesn't have anything to do with eliminating education. There are people driving for Uber who make as much money as adjunct faculty in a university.

Frankly, none of that is rationally related to the minimum wage.

Let me illustrate the problem here: Let's say Johnny is a highly skilled plumber. As a result of economic circumstances, plumbing work declines in value so it's now a minimum wage job. To follow the general vitriol against unskilled workers - would we then have to depress the wages of the unskilled so that they don't overtake the Johnny's of the world? And if the wages for skilled plumbers started climbing again - would we raise the wages of the unskilled to reflect that?

But before you tackle the hard questions - let's get back a basic one: What is the bare minimum?

 

[panamaican]

Ever seen a poor man provide a rich man with a job? Didn’t think so

Every election cycle.

 

[chrisdiaz]

What is the bare minimum? Empty phrases are not answers of merit.

And neither class nor social standing are determined by someone's income. That sounds very much like an argument predicated on the glorification of money. A criminal who makes more than a teacher is a higher class and social status individual because they make more money, very few people would follow that argument. The last sentence in that post absolutely doesn't make sense. An unskilled person making as much money as anyone else doesn't have anything to do with eliminating education. There are people driving for Uber who make as much money as adjunct faculty in a university.

Frankly, none of that is rationally related to the minimum wage.

Let me illustrate the problem here: Let's say Johnny is a highly skilled plumber. As a result of economic circumstances, plumbing work declines in value so it's now a minimum wage job. To follow the general vitriol against unskilled workers - would we then have to depress the wages of the unskilled so that they don't overtake the Johnny's of the world? And if the wages for skilled plumbers started climbing again - would we raise the wages of the unskilled to reflect that?

But before you tackle the hard questions - let's get back a basic one: What is the bare minimum?

Your hypothetical situation would never happen as competition drives wages in skilled trades. There arent a million plumbers. Johnny could easliy move to a location where there is more demand. The drug dealer making lets say thousands more than the teacher would have a better house and a nicer car and would contribute to the economy at a higher rate than the teacher. We live in a capitalist society(at least I do) and your status in society is directly related to what your worth. It probably shouldnt be but thats the way it is.

 

[panamaican]

Your hypothetical situation would never happen as competition drives wages in skilled trades. There arent a million plumbers. Johnny could easliy move to a location where there is more demand. The drug dealer making lets say thousands more than the teacher would have a better house and a nicer car and would contribute to the economy at a higher rate than the teacher. We live in a capitalist society(at least I do) and your status in society is directly related to what your worth. It probably shouldnt be but thats the way it is.

What is the bare minimum?

And while you're figuring out how to avoid that question -- if competition drives the wages for entry level IT work downwards then why shouldn't a minimum wage worker make as much as the entry level IT worker. The IT worker is no longer worth more. Artificially depressing the minimum because of the declining interest in IT worker's skill set doesn't support this capitalistic argument. If the IT worker was truly worth more than the minimum wage worker, someone would pay him more than the minimum wage.

It's not very hard to understand. Minimum wage rises to $15. IT worker says "I'm worth more than minimum wage." Employer says "Yes, I will pay you more than minimum wage." What you have been arguing is that we can't raise the minimum wage because the employer doesn't think the IT worker is worth more money. So, rather than accept that capitalism no longer values the IT worker's skillset, the argument being made is that we shouldn't raise the minimum wage. Not because of the minimum wage but because of the declining value of some other set of skills. It's a really, really bad argument.

But we digress -- what's the bare minimum?

 

[D3thr0n3d K1ng]

The same empty arguments. What should a minimum wage worker be able to afford?

No one cares if if's called a wage or a salary. The point I made and keep making is that it's an unintelligent argument for anyone to say "You shouldn't be able to buy X or Y on your salary." or "You shouldn't be able to make as much as that guy." Those arguments have nothing to do with the minimum wage.

They are class arguments. That people earning a minimum wage have to maintain a particular social standing. They can't be allowed to compete with their betters in terms of lifestyle. I'm not a classist. I see no reason that a person with no skills cannot earn as much money as anyone else, regardless of skills. So, I have no time for "He shouldn't be able to do as well as that guy" arguments.

In that regard, I'll ask again: What should a minimum wage worker be able to afford?

 

[Fox by the Sea]

Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences.

which is not a nobel prize.

 

[Yehudim]

Personally I agree, I think its best done at the local and/or state level. But my point was simply that its best to take an empirical approach to economics and when you do you can dispel certain myths like those around MW that were once common.

I mean, they're just pushing the cost elsewhere. We in Florida are finally getting our $15 minimum wage and they purposely put it gradually until 2026 because they know it will kill jobs if they just push it suddenly.

Great it doesn't kill jobs because employers know how to deal with that but what is the net-benefit really if you make more money but things get expensive elsewhere?

We have much better ways of helping poor people like the EITC, which is so popular even Republican's that didn't vote to increase it love it (because the only economic policy that they can vote on is tax cuts)