Ricksons opinion on closed guard?

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by MrBen, Aug 18, 2010.

  1. MrBen

    MrBen Orange Belt

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    I have seen a few posts dotted around the net talking about Rickson saying he no longer feels closed guard is viable option for mma. As he feels gnp has evolved too much.

    Rickson is apparently developing open guard positions for mma/street situations as he no longer feels the closed guard is effective enough?

    Anyone know if thats true? If it is does anyone have any more insight into what hes developing and what he feels are the limitations of the closed guard. If Rickson doesn't think the closed guard is effective enough anymore that really says something imo.



    Here are a few links i found:
    Jiu Jitsu Forum - Let's bring the Closed Guard back.

    http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f12/need-advice-regarding-rickson-seminar-1177660/index4.html#post37468600

     
  2. ozyabbas

    ozyabbas Purple Belt

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    donkey kong (don't know his real name) is the expert on all things Rickson.

    Both open and closed guard have their place. Most of the old school guys are very much pro closed guard and sceptical of open guards. I think Relson spoke out against guards such as the spider and DLR guard.
     
  3. RyanR

    RyanR Black Belt

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    I wouldn't say it's not applicable for the street. It's not like every guy you run across is a GnP expert with sub defense. I wouldn't want to be on my back during a street fight, but if I were I think I'd like to have as much control over the guy as possible then choke him or break something from there.
     
  4. BJJ_Rage

    BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

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    on the streets? well, unless you are facing mma fighters on the streets, against a regular joe, the close guard is more than efficient...(and please the troll comments like "ohhh but you are going to get jumped by his friends and kicked on the face"... this is a 1 vs 1 OBVIOUSLY!)
     
  5. MUFC

    MUFC Brown Belt

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    In MMA, some BJJ guys have failed with the closed guard because they were never closed guard guys in BJJ.

    A lot of BJJ guys seem to be abandoning the closed guard in BJJ, myself included. If no one is good at closed guard, and people have gotten better at defending against attacks from closed guard, it will obviously seem like it is less good for MMA.
     
  6. redaxe

    redaxe Silver Belt

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    Good point, just because you're a black belt doesn't mean you have a good closed guard for MMA purposes.

    Also I've seen some sick closed guard work in MMA from guys who are not black belts. Kendall Grove for example, his closed guard is ill.
     
  7. DevinTheDewd

    DevinTheDewd Orange Belt

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    Silva pulled the triangle off from closed guard... doesn't seem dead to me.
     
  8. bnosam

    bnosam Green Belt

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    Dude, if you had me in closed guard on DA STREETZ I'd just bite you in the face because my neck is as long as a giraffe's. :icon_chee
     
  9. MrBen

    MrBen Orange Belt

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    I don't think Rickson has said the closed guard is dead. From what i can gather from what i have seen he just feels certain open guard positions are more effective. There is a very big difference and at the end of the day its one mans opinion. Whats effective for Rickson might not be as effective for you or me. But if Rickson says something like that it makes me take notice.

    Rickson always seems to be looking for the most efficient solution and i always thought he was a big advocate of the closed guard. So i find it interesting that he might not believe the closed guard is the most effective way to fight from the bottom. I still don't know if this is how he feels as all i have seen is what other people have said, never heard Rickson say it himself in an interview etc.

    Also people saying closed guard is more than enough for the street because the chances of you fighting someone who knows that they are doing is so slim. That statement is very true but i don't think any of Ricksons jiujitsu is based around the assumption that the guy doesn't know anything or doesn't have high level grappling. I think he would use the same game on a seasoned black belt or a white belt in a fight. With the difference being that the white belt will make a lot more mistakes that he can capitalize on earlier. Both fight will end with Rickson in the mount or the back.
     
  10. HardEight

    HardEight Blue Belt

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    WRONG!

    Rickson by armbar.

    Always.:icon_chee
     
  11. RyanR

    RyanR Black Belt

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    Eh... Don't think this is a good example to use...
     
  12. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

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    Hell yea it is. Grove's grappling is slept on from all angles. He's so lanky he could probably be the first person to do a one armed anaconda choke.

    Seriously though, the philosophy of the closed guard between different schools has always frustrated and fascinated me.

    When I train at a one gym, the school of thought is to get to closed guard if you are on your back. Also the idea is drilled that you don't want to open your guard unless you are going for a submission or sweep. Keep it closed at all times until the moment of attack. If your guard gets opened, do what you need to do to scramble, get to 1/2 guard, or whatever, and go back to closed guard. Dave Camarillo has mentioned at a seminar that this is actually how he and BJ Penn were taught to play guard under Ralph Gracie.

    My home gym doesn't really have a set guard style. Maybe the reason is because there are more coaches. But in general, even though the gym's primary focus is MMA, there is a lot of butterfly, X, and half guard. It's an entirely different feeling. Yet, with MMA, it's often taught to go to closed guard and keep the posture broken until you can make a move.

    BJ Penn said in his 2nd fight with GSP that he actually preferred the moments when GSP passed the guard. He said that the punches hurt much worse when GSP was in his full guard.

    Another thing I always heard is that guards like the X-Guard and the Deep Half would never work in MMA, due to the likelihood of getting punched in the face. However, recent matches in the UFC alone with Little Nog, Palharres, Thiago Alves, and some other fighters have shown that the X and Deep Half guards seem to work pretty well in MMA if executed quickly, which has been very surprising to me. Obviously you can't hang out in those positions, but if you go straight for the sweep, good results are popping up. In fact, I'd say the Deep Half sweeps are what won Little Nog's last fight. He barely pulled out the win, and those sweeps might have made that small difference to the judges.

    We have just seen Sonnen and Fedor lose to simple closed guard techniques, so I don't think the closed guard will ever be "dead." However, you can't win a fight by simply having an active closed guard like you used to. Even if your opponent is just hugging you, you can throw up as many sub attempts as you want, you are not gonna get the nod from the judges.

    See Diego Sanchez vs. Jon Fitch for a great example of how to lose a fight by being very active from the closed guard. No disrespect to Fitch, he fought an incredible fight, and that's one of my favorite fights to watch. His sub defense is incredible.
     
  13. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

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    Just curious... why not?

    Because Sonnen is a triangle magnet?

    That's a fair point, but it also shows that you can get beat on for 23 minutes and still use a time tested, simple technique from a simple guard and beat a very tough fighter.

    Also people are sleeping on Sonnen's defense of that triangle. He actually attempted a smart defense. He just didn't keep his arm close enough to him. If he kept his arms close, he would've won that fight. Then again, he didn't so....
     
  14. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

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    Do you know where the origin of that phrase came from? I saw it here on Sherdog years before I joined, but I always thought of Rickson as the RNC guy. He's got like 8 rear naked chokes right? How many armbars does he have? one, two maybe?

    Sorry for the derail...
     
  15. SuperSuperRambo

    SuperSuperRambo Senior Moderator Senior Moderator

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    Where have I heard that........:icon_chee


    Interesting to hear Rickson, of all people, say that.
     
  16. redaxe

    redaxe Silver Belt

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    I think X and deep half work well in MMA because just getting into those positions puts your weight right under your opponent's and puts him so off-balance that there's no way he could put any power into his punches. I think the traditional figure-four half guard is bad for MMA though, it's best to get back to closed or use an underhook to stand up from there.

    I haven't really seen this in MMA yet, but I really like DLR guard in no-gi, and I think it could work in MMA too. I've been having a lot of success going for the DLR back-take in no-gi training. Even if I don't get the back I can stand up to a single leg or a bear hug takedown. And since DLR guard puts my head far away and off to the side I think it would be hard for my opponent to punch me effectively. Just gotta watch out for leglock attempts on the free leg, but wrist control on the near arm solves that.
     
  17. Freezing Winds**

    Freezing Winds** Green Belt

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    for x-guard to work in mma your opponent has to play into it.

    wilson reis tried using that against pitbull in bellator and pitbull just stepped away and did not engage him.

    andersong siva vs sonnen- at no point did sonnen almost gnp silva out, so this and the fact that his rib was probably killing him, the closed guard was pretty good.

    also, in da streetz, closed guard to keep him from damaging you, then really how hard is it to take the back from there against an untrained opponent? or a hip bump etc.
     
  18. HardEight

    HardEight Blue Belt

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    I have actually read he only has 2 victories by armbar.
    I think it's just satire that got started by everyone believing Rickson was invincible.

    Sort of one of those smart ass comebacks that turns into a classic. Like on Ferris Bueller's Day Off when Rooney is in the pizza place and there is a baseball game on TV...

    Ed Rooney: What's the score?
    Pizza Joint Owner: Nothin' nothin'.
    Ed Rooney: [not really listening] Who's winning?
    Pizza Joint Owner: The Bears.

    I used to use that a lot, like when my wife would come in and I would be watching a fight, and she would ask who was winning not really caring, I would say,
    "The Bears."
     
  19. James Fuller

    James Fuller Amateur Fighter

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    yeah he might have only had those 2 in his offical fights but he is 400-0 remember? so I bet the other 389 were by armbar :)

    Also could you guys help me by defining "deep" half guard? Seem to be getting conflicting answers...
     
  20. lechien

    lechien Gold Belt

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    Now I gonna have to agree with Balto.

    Rickson is talking about creating an open guard for MMA and streets at his seminars!!!
     

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