Rickson states that competition BJJ

[SuperSuperRambo]

The analogy was fine, except when you said "the basis of jiujitsu is self defense."

I disagree totally - you do not need to learn how to defend a knife attack to excel in competition. The basis of jiujitsu is live sparring - like the basis of F1 driving is driving a car. Thats the core of it, and what can be boiled down to the most basic levels.

Drilling knife defense on a non-resisting opponent is virtually useless.

Besides everything else, this brings up an important point that I think Balto or someone touched on earlier - if you want to learn self-defense against weapons, there are far better disciplines to study. Military hand-to-hand combat has taken techniques rooted in bjj and other arts and has done what bjj did to the arts before it - boiled it down to the most useful and applicable techniques, and made them better.

BJJ as taught by the Gracies is not the best self-defense you can learn. Although I like team carvalho's sparring with the gloves on, and I think thats actually a great way to learn, that can only be learned hand in hand with live sparring of just jiujitsu so that you can practice the techniques at 100%. Otherwise you will never learn the proper timing and movement.

The bottom line: if you want to train self-defense, go for it - but don't disparage others simply because they have no interest in it, and don't feel like learning it.

Where is the disparaging? By saying that sport competition is not all there is to bjj, how is that disparaging? Some people exclusively train no gi bjj for MMA. That's also not all there is to bjj. It's not disparaging either one, certainly you're allowed to specialize.

As far as "the basis of bjj" ... I think to discern what that is, you look to the original Gracie brothers and why they taught what they taught. That's the root of it all. Even if a lot of people train it for pure sport today (again, nothing wrong with that), I don't think anyone will say it was created for pure sport.

I get it, you train purely for sport, and you're trying to defend what you do. But not everything that people are saying in this thread is designed to attack you, so stop taking it all personally.

 

[Jagcorps_esq]

I get it, you train purely for sport, and you're trying to defend what you do. But not everything that people are saying in this thread is designed to attack you, so stop taking it all personally.

Plus 1.

People tend to defend anything they see as an attack. I don't think any rational person here is questioning the talent or commitment or penis size of any person that trains primarily in sport BJJ. I prefer that aspect of BJJ too, but full recognize that that is not all there is to BJJ.

I recognize that I am focusing on what I like and giving less attention to the aspects that I don't like. That's true of anyone.

 

[teamcarvalho]

This thread is about what Rickson said during a question and answer part of a seminar. He stated that competition BJJ is only 30% of real BJJ. Then you get people that have less than 2 years in training in BJJ come on here and have the nerve to disagree with him.

Not only has he been doing BJJ since he was a little kid and the fact that he is a Master (Red & Black Belt) in BJJ and top it off one of the best BJJ fighters alive....... I think when he states something about BJJ people have to realize that he might know what he is talking about. I don't think there is a Gracie alive that would disagree with him either.....as shown in Cesar Gracie's article titled "Total Jiu-Jitsu" where he basically states the same thing.

BJJ consists of simply three components.......Self Defense, Vale-Tudo and Competition. Simple as can be......if you don't do all three then you are not doing complete BJJ and missing out on being well rounded.

If you train at a school that only teaches sport BJJ and you are happy about it that's is fine but don't come on here stating what Rickson says is false because you don't like it. I don't think there is one BJJ instructor here in the U.S. or Brazil that would go up to Rickson and tell him to his face that he is wrong.

 

[lechien]

I don't think they are disagreeing. They are just only the sport BJJ competition stuff:

“Competition Jiu-Jitsu represents only 30% of real Jiu-Jitsu. Without the other 70%, which includes standup self-defense, defensive striking and clinching skills and an efficient vale-tudo guard, practitioners cannot develop the confidence to walk the streets knowing that they can survive a possible confrontation

I had a talk with a brown belt which I train with for the past 7 years.

He is only interest in the 30% to my dismay.

 

[Janilane]

Well yes, obviously sport bjj is 100% sport bjj. But sport bjj isn't all of what bjj has always been about. The fact that there are so many high level bjj practitioners in MMA is not a coincidence nor an accident. It was designed for a fight. The sporting aspect existed simultaneously, and allowed practitioners to hone their skills and develop them to a high level. Sport-style training and competition is certainly part of bjj. But what Rickson is saying (taking into account that all percentages like this are arbitrary) is that the art that he learned and taught is not purely sport, and is meant for fighting and self defense as well. Whether you choose to train purely for sport of not, that's your choice. There's nothing wrong with one or the other. But what Rickson is saying is merely that the jiu jitsu he believes in is not just a sport, although sport is part of it.

I don't see what part of that people find so objectionable.

I agree, the combat BJJ that Rickson and Renzo came to know were purely non-sport oriented. Only when Rickson competed in MMA that most people think that's all there is to it. If you have seen the old videos of Renzo and Rickson competing in Brazil, not in an MMA ring but in a No-GI no rules fight (even eye-gouging was allowed), you would see where he is coming from when he said that 30% comment.

With regards to the comment "pull guard", why would you do that when you're street fighting? You'll get smashed! Sport BJJ is just that, for tourneys, not for street where Helio designed it to be. When you're getting smashed in concrete, would you say to yourself "hey wait, i should armbar him, no, maybe elevator sweep...", of course not, you would check the punches and go from there!

 

[teamcarvalho]

I don't think they are disagreeing. They are just only the sport BJJ competition stuff:

 

[lechien]

Wow that is interesting....what did you tell him?

Well, the conversation about the issue has been brewing for a while and is just a prolongation of previous discussions about the claims of the Gracie Online program / combatives.

I just pointed it to him that creating new techniques for defeat JJ seems to be the common trend nowdays. i.e inverted guard, 50/50. Not that anything with that, because I will experimenting on my latest sit up guard stuff.

I pointed out that we are not doing "our duty" when only catering for athletes that just want to compete.

Personally, I believe in JJ! the sport aspect is just a by product.

Hard to explain and I will use an example.

When you breed a litter of pups, you do it to better the breed. You will keep the best example of the breed in your breeding program. The rest are sold as pet only (to be never bred from). Such pets are a by product of the breeding program.

Competition is a by product of the JJ program.

And a friend of mine left the club because he did not want to do the sport stuff and just wanted to learn to protect himself and his family.

I feel sour about it and offered him to come and train in my garage instead.

He replied that if you want to learn to fight, you should go train MMA!

 

[anaconda]

Where is the disparaging? By saying that sport competition is not all there is to bjj, how is that disparaging? Some people exclusively train no gi bjj for MMA. That's also not all there is to bjj. It's not disparaging either one, certainly you're allowed to specialize.

As far as "the basis of bjj" ... I think to discern what that is, you look to the original Gracie brothers and why they taught what they taught. That's the root of it all. Even if a lot of people train it for pure sport today (again, nothing wrong with that), I don't think anyone will say it was created for pure sport.

I get it, you train purely for sport, and you're trying to defend what you do. But not everything that people are saying in this thread is designed to attack you, so stop taking it all personally.

Somehow claiming that me (or anyone who trains for sport) isn't doing "real" jiu-jitsu sounds pretty damn disparaging.

The sad part is that most places that teach "Gracie Jiujitsu" and do a lot of self-defense stuff are actually quite horrible in competition. I think this is just a way for the Gracies (and those who cling to the old self-defense line) to distance themselves from competitions so that if they don't do well, its ok - thats not "real" jiujitsu anyway.

I just see it as an attempt to cheapen the sportive aspect, when the reality is that people who train for this as a sport train 10x harder and put way more blood, sweat and tears into it than those who are doing it for self-defense. This is besides all the arguments against the efficacy of BJJ self-defense as its usually taught that I have gone over ad nauseum in this thread and many others.

There are a few exceptions, but even then I think they are being disingenuous. I hardly think that Saulo and Xande were training self-defense techniques while they were winning world championships - but now if you go to their school they say its a huge part of jiujitsu and you have to do it.

Other than them, I can't think of anyone from the classic Gracie mentality that does well in competition - hence why I feel Rickson says stuff like this to make it seem like competition means nothing, but only AFTER his son fails to medal as a black belt for 3 years. Please.

 

[joe90210]

Somehow claiming that me (or anyone who trains for sport) isn't doing "real" jiu-jitsu sounds pretty damn disparaging.

The sad part is that most places that teach "Gracie Jiujitsu" and do a lot of self-defense stuff are actually quite horrible in competition. I think this is just a way for the Gracies (and those who cling to the old self-defense line) to distance themselves from competitions so that if they don't do well, its ok - thats not "real" jiujitsu anyway.

I just see it as an attempt to cheapen the sportive aspect, when the reality is that people who train for this as a sport train 10x harder and put way more blood, sweat and tears into it than those who are doing it for self-defense. This is besides all the arguments against the efficacy of BJJ self-defense as its usually taught that I have gone over ad nauseum in this thread and many others.

There are a few exceptions, but even then I think they are being disingenuous. I hardly think that Saulo and Xande were training self-defense techniques while they were winning world championships - but now if you go to their school they say its a huge part of jiujitsu and you have to do it.

Other than them, I can't think of anyone from the classic Gracie mentality that does well in competition - hence why I feel Rickson says stuff like this to make it seem like competition means nothing, but only AFTER his son fails to medal as a black belt for 3 years. Please.

riiiiiight, what was he saying when Kron was dominating at brown? definitely not the opposite of his current opinion. The fact is that the Helio line of the family have always always been about the self-defense aspect first and foremost, for you to claim that he's only saying this now cause Kron hasn't won the mundials at black belt is retarded.

 

[Janilane]

Somehow claiming that me (or anyone who trains for sport) isn't doing "real" jiu-jitsu sounds pretty damn disparaging.

The sad part is that most places that teach "Gracie Jiujitsu" and do a lot of self-defense stuff are actually quite horrible in competition.

I respect your opinion, as do others. But think that GJJ do "horrible" in competition could be true in some light, because that maybe is depending on where you train and how skilled the competitor is, and because they train MOSTLY for self-defense, i.e. punches, kicks, headbutts, elbow hits. Now, my question to you is, do you do those things in competition? Do you train sport BJJ and focus most on those street-fighting defense? The answer is clearly a big NO. You don't anticipate being punched in the face in competition, while you do your guard, right? It's strange that a sport BJJ competitor like you should expect every GJJ defense-oriented techniques to work in tourneys and perform well?

 

[Balto]

This thread is about what Rickson said during a question and answer part of a seminar. He stated that competition BJJ is only 30% of real BJJ. Then you get people that have less than 2 years in training in BJJ come on here and have the nerve to disagree with him.

Not only has he been doing BJJ since he was a little kid and the fact that he is a Master (Red & Black Belt) in BJJ and top it off one of the best BJJ fighters alive....... I think when he states something about BJJ people have to realize that he might know what he is talking about. I don't think there is a Gracie alive that would disagree with him either.....as shown in Cesar Gracie's article titled "Total Jiu-Jitsu" where he basically states the same thing.

BJJ consists of simply three components.......Self Defense, Vale-Tudo and Competition. Simple as can be......if you don't do all three then you are not doing complete BJJ and missing out on being well rounded.

If you train at a school that only teaches sport BJJ and you are happy about it that's is fine but don't come on here stating what Rickson says is false because you don't like it. I don't think there is one BJJ instructor here in the U.S. or Brazil that would go up to Rickson and tell him to his face that he is wrong.

This is the same Rickson worship line of thought that irks a lot of people in BJJ.

Personally, I agree with Rickson's statement that competition is only a part of BJJ. For me, it probably is like 30%. Other aspects (in addition to self-defense and vale tudo) make up the rest.

However, that's just me. No one person can generalize BJJ for everyone else. Not even Rickson.

There has been an attitude lately coming from Helio's side talking about the "true" BJJ. By that, they mean their particular conception of BJJ. Helio did not completely invent BJJ. Back when he was alive, a lot of people disagreed with some of his ideas. Obviously the Carlos/Helio side split, but even outside of that with some guys pointing out that people other than the Gracies contributed to early BJJ too. BJJ is bigger than any one person, or even any one family.

I'm not sure that Rickson even meant any offense by his statement. It could have been taken totally out of context. But by saying that the "real" BJJ is only 30% competition, some people are going to take it as an insult if their BJJ is 70% competition, or 85% competition, 60% competition, or whatever. It can be taken to imply that since their BJJ is different from Rickson's ideal, it is not real BJJ. But that is false because Rickson does not get to dictate what real BJJ is. He did not invent BJJ by himself, and honestly even his dad did not invent BJJ by himself.

BJJ has a life of its own now. Rickson comes off like a grumpy old man by constantly calling new things not real BJJ. Maybe it does not fit into his conception of BJJ, but the truth is that he is mostly retired now so BJJ is no longer his to shape to the same degree that it once was. Better to just let the new generation shape it than try to cling bitterly to the way things once were.

And I don't even disagree with Rickson. Competition is only one part of many out of the art for me. But I don't generalize my conceptions onto others. And for those people whom competition plays a very significant role (much greater than 30%), I can understand why they are not too pleased about statements implying that they do not practice true BJJ.

 

[teamcarvalho]

I agree with Janilane's last post.....I remember a long time ago Mario Sperry appeared in a article in Black Belt magazine where he showed BJJ techniques for the street..,,shit I wish I still had that issue:icon_cry2....anyway in the article he stated that their was a big difference in training for sport and training for the streets. Once again a guy that not only competed in sport BJJ but also fought in MMA came out and said pretty much the same thing of what we are discussing on this thread. If anybody has that issue I will buy off of you.:icon_chee

 

[teamcarvalho]

This is the same Rickson worship line of thought that irks a lot of people in BJJ.

Personally, I agree with Rickson's statement that competition is only a part of BJJ. For me, it probably is like 30%. Other aspects (in addition to self-defense and vale tudo) make up the rest.

However, that's just me. No one person can generalize BJJ for everyone else. Not even Rickson.

There has been an attitude lately coming from Helio's side talking about the "true" BJJ. By that, they mean their particular conception of BJJ. Helio did not completely invent BJJ. Back when he was alive, a lot of people disagreed with some of his ideas. Obviously the Carlos/Helio side split, but even outside of that with some guys pointing out that people other than the Gracies contributed to early BJJ too. BJJ is bigger than any one person, or even any one family.

I'm not sure that Rickson even meant any offense by his statement. It could have been taken totally out of context. But by saying that the "real" BJJ is only 30% competition, some people are going to take it as an insult if their BJJ is 70% competition, or 85% competition, 60% competition, or whatever. It can be taken to imply that since their BJJ is different from Rickson's ideal, it is not real BJJ. But that is false because Rickson does not get to dictate what real BJJ is. He did not invent BJJ by himself, and honestly even his dad did not invent BJJ by himself.

BJJ has a life of its own now. Rickson comes off like a grumpy old man by constantly calling new things not real BJJ. Maybe it does not fit into his conception of BJJ, but the truth is that he is mostly retired now so BJJ is no longer his to shape to the same degree that it once was. Better to just let the new generation shape it than try to cling bitterly to the way things once were.

And I don't even disagree with Rickson. Competition is only one part of many out of the art for me. But I don't generalize my conceptions onto others. And for those people whom competition plays a very significant role (much greater than 30%), I can understand why they are not too pleased about statements implying that they do not practice true BJJ.

It is not just Rickson or the Gracies that are stating this.......most of the Red Belts that are not related or have a Gracie name are saying the same thing.

 

[teamcarvalho]

Imagine 5 or 10 years from now those BJJ practitioners who become black belts who never trained in self defense or Vale-Tudo open their own academy and in walks in a prospective student that wants to take BJJ for self defense. What is this black belt going to tell him. "Sorry my friend.....I don't teach self defense but I can show you a mean 50/50 guard." :redface:

 

[gasmotorsports]

My teacher was very into vale tudo but because most of the students he teaches are most interested in sports jiu jitsu I think he sways a little to satisfy his students. I like the self defense and vale tudo stuff but sense I'm really focused on tournaments I find myself more engaged with the gi tech stuff.

I really enjoy the classes he shows other aspects though and I don't have any problem saying there is more to jiu jitsu than the little slice I'm focused on. I'm glad I have a teacher that makes sure I realize the things I'm learning may or may not be the whole picture.

I kinda think jiu jitsu is what you make of it. so if thats just sports jiu jitsu to you than so be but if at some point you find yourself wanting more maybe you should broaden your horizons to other aspects of the same art.

 

[gasmotorsports]

I'm speaking more for begainers like myself here. You better know every aspect by the time you get to black belt.

 

[LocalNmass]

This thread is about what Rickson said during a question and answer part of a seminar. He stated that competition BJJ is only 30% of real BJJ. Then you get people that have less than 2 years in training in BJJ come on here and have the nerve to disagree with him.

Not only has he been doing BJJ since he was a little kid and the fact that he is a Master (Red & Black Belt) in BJJ and top it off one of the best BJJ fighters alive....... I think when he states something about BJJ people have to realize that he might know what he is talking about. I don't think there is a Gracie alive that would disagree with him either.....as shown in Cesar Gracie's article titled "Total Jiu-Jitsu" where he basically states the same thing.

BJJ consists of simply three components.......Self Defense, Vale-Tudo and Competition. Simple as can be......if you don't do all three then you are not doing complete BJJ and missing out on being well rounded.

If you train at a school that only teaches sport BJJ and you are happy about it that's is fine but don't come on here stating what Rickson says is false because you don't like it. I don't think there is one BJJ instructor here in the U.S. or Brazil that would go up to Rickson and tell him to his face that he is wrong.

The scenario of people/guys who have less than 5 yrs of BJJ/mma training coming on here critiquing legit BJJ black belts, whether it be Rorians sons,Rickson or Saulo is all too common.

 

[Evan_The_Kid_1]

I like the self defense stuff. I'm always psyched to watch those old vids of Helio working knife and gun defense.

I don't know about the 30% mark, but I will say there is a lot of jiujitsu that falls outside the sport category.

i agree, whats so wrong about about self defense techniqes? and yeah i think the gracies have a better say than most on bjj, since their family sorta created THAT version of jiu jitsu. But hey, what do they know? their is definitely some stuff that the gracies do that most bjj schools dont do, like the type of takedowns they have, their few kicks and whatnot

 

[Evan_The_Kid_1]

Imagine 5 or 10 years from now those BJJ practitioners who become black belts who never trained in self defense or Vale-Tudo open their own academy and in walks in a prospective student that wants to take BJJ for self defense. What is this black belt going to tell him. "Sorry my friend.....I don't teach self defense but I can show you a mean 50/50 guard." :redface:

lmao. good score

 

[Janilane]

The scenario of people/guys who have less than 5 yrs of BJJ/mma training coming on here critiquing legit BJJ black belts, whether it be Rorians sons,Rickson or Saulo is all too common.

well, in this particular topic, it is all too common that people who do Sport BJJ will be defensive, because that's what they train in. Similar to another art like Karate, where a person taking Shotokan will take offense when someone will say Goju-Ryu is better. Bottomline is, like what Team Carvalho stated, Rickson is a master and has seen it all, so I don't have the right to question him. Those who don't agree might be training a couple of years without experience tucked under their belt, either doing Carlson Gracie JJ, Will Machado JJ, or simply training in Sport BJJ.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

My two cents.