Rickson Gracie vs Gokor Chivichyan

So we're only counting wins under Rickson's rules, or if they ended in a submission?

I'm talking competitions/fights that don't count pinning someones shoulders on the ground for a second a win. Something that somewhat resembles actual combat. Do you really consider Ron Tripp a better grappler than Rickson? If Tripp had taken Rickson down, dominated him and controlled him positionally on the ground, but had not submitted him, I would consider it a win for Tripp. But that didn't happen.

Edit: Basically what I am saying is that how do you know that if it hadn't been stopped after the pin, that Rickson wouldnt have just recovered guard and arm barred him (which is probably what would've happened)? Tripp needed to show that he could do what he did, and then avoided rickson's attacks on the ground to be considered a real win IMO. But yes, it was a win under those rules, which are unrealistic in actual fighting.
 
I'm talking competitions/fights that don't count pinning someones shoulders on the ground for a second a win. Something that somewhat resembles actual combat. Do you really consider Ron Tripp a better grappler than Rickson? If Tripp had taken Rickson down, dominated him and controlled him positionally on the ground, but had not submitted him, I would consider it a win for Tripp. But that didn't happen.

He's definitely a better judoka/sambist, which he proved by winning with an uchi mata, not a pin.
 
Yup. Fighting and training are two very different skills. Its why I'd rather have Angelo Dundee than Muhammed Ali as my boxing trainer, but rather have Ali fighting for me than Dundee. (Same with Cus D'amato vs Tyson).

Or I'd rather have Scotty Bowman coaching my hockey team (12 Stanley Cup rings as a coach, only minor league hockey) than Gretzky (arguably best hockey player ever, horrible results as an NHL coach), but much rather have Gretzky playing on my team than Bowman.

Amen. Good point about being great at one not always being great at the other.

Oh and +1 for the Scotty Bowman reference.
 
He's definitely a better judoka/sambist, which he proved by winning with an uchi mata, not a pin.

He proved he was a better judoka on that day, at that moment. I'm a brown belt and last night I rolled with a purple belt that I usually beat fairly easily. However, last night he caught me in a triangle and I had to tap. Is he a better BJJ guy than me? No, but at that moment, he capitalized on a mistake and was successful in his submission attempt.

I am talking about overall grappling (which does include Judo). It would be like if you created a competition where sweeping someone counted as a win, and guys were racking up wins by sweeping guys, then claiming they were better grapplers. It's a win under a silly rule set.

But ya man, it's totally ridiculous to claim Rickson was the best. I mean Gurgel, Traven, JJ Machado all claim he is, but everyone knows that he got thrown one time by a Judo/Sambo guy. It totally negates and discounts everything else he has done...
 
rickson got ipponed not pinned. Since Rickson never claimed to be an amazing takedown artist i don't know how that is a reflect on his ground grappling skills.
 
rickson got ipponed not pinned. Since Rickson never claimed to be an amazing takedown artist i don't know how that is a reflect on his ground grappling skills.

Yes, that was my mistake. I thought it was a pin, but it was in fact a throw. But it really doesn't matter whether it was a throw or a pin, which are both valuable in grappling, because neither of those should mark the end of a match if you are truly trying to see who the better grappler is. See my sweep example in my earlier post.
 
This is why I said this was a stupid topic. It's ben done to death and it causes people to debate wins on stupid technicalities that don't really mean anything.
 
It's not a technicality when you get thrown for ippon and lose. I might as well say that I lost by technicality in a BJJ match because my guard was passed and I was mounted, so I was down 7-0 at the end of the match. Since they don't have those points in judo, then it's just a technicality.

Not the way it works.

I agree that Rickson is the best BJJ guy ever, but there's no reason to give him leeway on this issue. Just man up and don't be such a baby about getting beat in a different grappling sport.
 
This is why I said this was a stupid topic. It's ben done to death and it causes people to debate wins on stupid technicalities that don't really mean anything.

Stupid topic or not, I got the answers I wanted. People's opinions of who the better GRAPPLER is, not judoka/or bjj practitioner etc... Nobody asked for technicality wins, such as Tripp over Rickson. I specifically said, sub only, meaning whoever gets the submission.. The throw or pin will make no difference to who wins. Whether anybody admits it or not, both of these guys are amazing, world class grapplers. And regardless of whether the match would ever happen or not, it is still an interesting match to debate over and I guarantee many people agree with me, or not many people would have responded. The skill of two completely different grapplers who both are supposedly undefeated. Anyways, regarding this topic having been done to death, I looked over every forum I could find on Sherdog for hypothetical fights between these two, and none of them answered my question logically enough. If you look over the other forums, I'm sure you will agree. Anyhow, seeing that you say you've actually rolled with Rickson, thank you for your input.
 
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It's not a technicality when you get thrown for ippon and lose. I might as well say that I lost by technicality in a BJJ match because my guard was passed and I was mounted, so I was down 7-0 at the end of the match. Since they don't have those points in judo, then it's just a technicality.

Not the way it works.

I agree that Rickson is the best BJJ guy ever, but there's no reason to give him leeway on this issue. Just man up and don't be such a baby about getting beat in a different grappling sport.

I think you're missing my point. Nobody is being a baby or denying that Rickson lost under those rules. I'm just saying that because he lost under those rules does not mean that Tripp was a better grappler or fighter. He was competing in a competition that put a specific emphasis on one part of grappling. The difference between the Tripp/Rickson example and the one you gave (about having your guard passed and mounted) is that yours encompasses more aspects of grappling than the competition that Tripp won in. In the tripp/rickson match, rickson got thrown and lost as a result. Most likely, rickson would have recovered guard and arm barred him pretty quickly had it continued. In your example, you got taken down, guard passed, and mounted, removing all speculation of whether or not you might have reversed the circumstances once it hit the ground. It all goes back to application to fighting. Taken someone down is not as significant as mounting someone.
 
To really answer the question, who do you think would beat Rickson is a no points, no time limit match? Do you think Ron Tripp would even have the slightest chance? You could make an argument that Roger or Buchecha might be able to beat prime rickson (though I doubt it) and that is reasonable. Ron Tripp, on the other hand... no way. I never said that Rickson could win in any kind of grappling competition under any rule set. Only that he would win under a rule set that really matters.

It's just silly to bring up the ron tripp match when discussing Rickson's GOAT status.
 
To really answer the question, who do you think would beat Rickson is a no points, no time limit match? Do you think Ron Tripp would even have the slightest chance? You could make an argument that Roger or Buchecha might be able to beat prime rickson (though I doubt it) and that is reasonable. Ron Tripp, on the other hand... no way. I never said that Rickson could win in any kind of grappling competition under any rule set. Only that he would win under a rule set that really matters.

It's just silly to bring up the ron tripp match when discussing Rickson's GOAT status.

Forget Tripp vs Rickson, as you said Rickson would destroy Tripp if it's a match where what matters is the sub, I completely agree with that. You say you've rolled with Rickson, how would you describe a match where it's the sub that matters, between him and Gokor? I prefer the opinion of someone who has first hand experience with either of the two and it seems like you're the only one who claimed that so far.
 
Forget Tripp vs Rickson, as you said Rickson would destroy Tripp if it's a match where what matters is the sub, I completely agree with that. You say you've rolled with Rickson, how would you describe a match where it's the sub that matters, between him and Gokor? I prefer the opinion of someone who has first hand experience with either of the two and it seems like you're the only one who claimed that so far.

I've never rolled with Gokor and there isn't much footage of him rolling so I can't really say how good he is. I'm sure, as many have claimed that he is phenomenal, especially with his throws and leg locks. As a guy who loves leg locks, I have mad respect for Gokor and mean no disrespect when I say that I think Rickson would most likely win. I think it would most likely look something like this: Rickson either gets taken down or pulls guard, then rickson either finishes with an arm bar or sweeps and submits from mount or side. This is just my opinion, which is based off of my experience with Rickson and what I've heard of him from other reputable grapplers and what from what I've heard and the little I've seen from Gokor. It's all speculation, but I feel pretty confident in saying that Rickson would win. But who knows, guys with good leg locks always have a shot of pulling off a sub from almost anywhere, even when they are losing. Rickson vs Gokor at Metamoris III!




Just Kidding...
 
I've never rolled with Gokor and there isn't much footage of him rolling so I can't really say how good he is. I'm sure, as many have claimed that he is phenomenal, especially with his throws and leg locks. As a guy who loves leg locks, I have mad respect for Gokor and mean no disrespect when I say that I think Rickson would most likely win. I think it would most likely look something like this: Rickson either gets taken down or pulls guard, then rickson either finishes with an arm bar or sweeps and submits from mount or side. This is just my opinion, which is based off of my experience with Rickson and what I've heard of him from other reputable grapplers and what from what I've heard and the little I've seen from Gokor. It's all speculation, but I feel pretty confident in saying that Rickson would win. But who knows, guys with good leg locks always have a shot of pulling off a sub from almost anywhere, even when they are losing. Rickson vs Gokor at Metamoris III!




Just Kidding...

Lol that would be something...
And thanks for the insight, your opinion is appreciated.
 
fighting MMA>training MMA fighters.

All the powerss of rickson is based on him kicking ass in vale tudo fights, which at least he has 11 documented, and people talking about rolling with him...

both of them are heavily based on myths and story tells of people around them..

Im not saying they were cans, but they were, what else did the guys Rickson beat did? yeah absolutely nothing. Gokor is on a similar boat, he won some MMA matches too.

Im not saying Rickson is bad, but i respect the Gracies that actually made the art famous by fighting, not hiding under a mystical aura used so much by TMAs masters.

I mean even Roger got tapped in training, but Rickson can somehow go against 2 persons using 1 hand and not get tapped, ridiculous.
 
I say Helio Gracie vs Anton Geesink in grappling

Oldman of BJJ vs who would be considered an uber beast in his time in Judo.

Or Rickson Gracie vs Toshihiko Koga
 
Im not saying they were cans, but they were, what else did the guys Rickson beat did? yeah absolutely nothing. Gokor is on a similar boat, he won some MMA matches too.

Im not saying Rickson is bad, but i respect the Gracies that actually made the art famous by fighting, not hiding under a mystical aura used so much by TMAs masters.

I mean even Roger got tapped in training, but Rickson can somehow go against 2 persons using 1 hand and not get tapped, ridiculous.

And this is why comparing the two is a perfect topic. Rickson and Gokor have similar reputations with no hard evidence. Everybody who knows them or who's rolled with them say they are phenomenal grapplers. The rumors surrounding them both make it a dream match for any grappling fan.
 
Im not saying they were cans, but they were, what else did the guys Rickson beat did? yeah absolutely nothing. Gokor is on a similar boat, he won some MMA matches too.

Im not saying Rickson is bad, but i respect the Gracies that actually made the art famous by fighting, not hiding under a mystical aura used so much by TMAs masters.

I mean even Roger got tapped in training, but Rickson can somehow go against 2 persons using 1 hand and not get tapped, ridiculous.

who wasnt a can back then??

Also, I agree that rickson's record is more of a myth than reality, but unlike gokor, he had some pro documented fights, Gokor had NONE.
 
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