Revisionism on Vitor vs Rumble

[Blah4]

I think Rockhold, Weidman and Sonnen would be favored over Belfort in Brazil.

Lombard would probably be even odds. The rest of the top 10 would be small underdogs.

lol at Okami being favored over Belfort

 

[MadTitan]

They also act like Vitor got bullied around and outwrestled badly by Johnson, when in reality he got thrown down once after a highkick and once after a weird scramble, defended 5 other takedown attempts and then beat AJ.

It was a good win, the Franklin fight was a great win at the time. Most people also overlook the Lindland win, which was great at the time.

Lindland was nasty in the day, but are we going to pretend he was still in his prime then? I don't think people underrate Vitor that badly. He's considered to be a very good fighter who struggles beating elite guys. I see nothing in his record to contradict this.

Vitor is a lot like Mir. He has fans who refuse to accept his limitations as a fighter, so they get mad when he faces an elite fighter, and people question his ability to win that fight. He's a great fighter, but most of the biggest names on his resume are losses.

 

[spid3yo]

Betting odds have been proven to be a much more reliable predictor of an event's outcome than any alternative (pundit's opinions, surveys, rankings, etc), not only in sports but also political elections and other events.

Check the link if you don't believe me

http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/re...ets wolfers/13 prediction markets wolfers.pdf

Betting lines are based on popularity, and what's going to bring the house the most money. It's that simple. If you want to compare how good one fighter is to another based on that line, good luck but it'll be a floppy argument.

There you are, more revisionism.

Beating Franklin when Vitor did it was pretty much like beating Sonnen now, or even more. 6 months Prior Franklin was ranked #2 MW, and was #7LHW at the time.

You seem to forget that Vitor fought Jones at UFC 152 only because tons of LHW fighters refused that fight.

So beating the #2 MW is the same as being the #7 lhw? Talk about making stuff up. I seem to recall plenty of other more worthy opponents calling out Jones too.

 

[MadTitan]

I think Rockhold, Weidman and Sonnen would be favored over Belfort in Brazil.

Lombard would probably be even odds. The rest of the top 10 would be small underdogs.

lol at Okami being favored over Belfort

Considering some of the shots Jacare hit Rockhold with, I think Belfort may knock his head off. I would call that 50/50. Lombard should beat Belfort if he comes to grapple, but he likes to play counterstriker with an inferior reach and inferior handspeed, so he might lose that one.

 

[Dickson Gracie]

There you are, more revisionism.

Beating Franklin when Vitor did it was pretty much like beating Sonnen now, or even more. 6 months Prior Franklin was ranked #2 MW, and was #7LHW at the time.

You seem to forget that Vitor fought Jones at UFC 152 only because tons of LHW fighters refused that fight.

I think Vitor gets too much credit from some on here, but not enough for nearly killing Matt Lindland when he did. Even though it was probably wrong, people still talked about Lindland as a legitimate threat to Anderson and other UFC MWs. Vitor's Lindland win and his Franklin win are IMO the most impressive thing he's done since losing to Henderson.

 

[spid3yo]

Like someone else said Vitor fought Franklin at a catchweight to accommodate Franklin, and now people want to act like it doesn't count...I think you are exactly the type of person TC had in mind when he made this thread.

They also needed someone to fight Jones. He didn't "earn" a title shot, nor is anybody claiming he did. UFC needed someone to fight Jones and that's the end of it. It's not about getting a gift or whatever.

I don't care if he was accommodating Franklin or not, that has nothing to do with getting a title opportunity. Should we give every fighter who agrees to fight an opponent who comes in overweight an instant title opportunity in any weight class?? That seems to be what's happening here.

And you are fooling yourself if you think Vitor earned his shot at Jones. It was handed to him.

 

[Deffid]

Lindland was nasty in the day, but are we going to pretend he was still in his prime then? I don't think people underrate Vitor that badly. He's considered to be a very good fighter who struggles beating elite guys. I see nothing in his record to contradict this.

Vitor is a lot like Mir. He has fans who refuse to accept his limitations as a fighter, so they get mad when he faces an elite fighter, and people question his ability to win that fight. He's a great fighter, but most of the biggest names on his resume are losses.

Well he was not that far removed from losing a very close decision to Rampage, who went on to become UFC champion. I think Lindland should have gotten the decision. I also think that Vitor destroyed Lindland's career for good. He probably wasn't in his prime but still very good, but that KO ruined him IMO.

Agreed on the second part. Though Vitor always had the problem with the lack of tune up, "climb the ladder" fights. He was always such a big name, it was usually one tune up fight against someone who had no chance and then a top guy. The Bisping fight is really refreshing, but in the past switching from easy win to elite opponent like he often did hurt him.

 

[rlm81]

Betting lines are based on popularity, and what's going to bring the house the most money. It's that simple. If you want to compare how good one fighter is to another based on that line, good luck but it'll be a floppy argument.

Did you actually read what I wrote? There is plenty of research (I gave you a link with a survey) that shows that betting lines outperform any other alternative ("specialists" opinions, polls, rankigns, etc.) in terms of predicting the outcomes of events. Are you going to dispute that?

Do you know a better measure of a quality of a fighter than who is more likely to win a fight?

So beating the #2 MW is the same as being the #7 lhw? Talk about making stuff up. I seem to recall plenty of other more worthy opponents calling out Jones too.

Let me explain to you slowly:
- Claim: rankings wise beating Franklin when Belfort did is better than beating Sonnen now.
- Proof: Sonnen 6 months ago was #2 MW, and now is an unranked LHW.
Franklin was #2 MW 6 monthis prior, and #7 LHW at the time of the fight. Thus, Franklin then outranked Sonnen now.

Also, why don't you remind us of the alleged more "worthy" opponents who would fight Jones at UFC 152.

 

[Hanoi Rox]

Agrees. Vitor is often disrespected on here even though he is incredibly talented and has been successful.

Another thing I see people try to do is say "It wasn't a MW fight, so it has no bearing on the title picture." That's ridiculous. Vitor made weight. Just because AJ didn't doesn't mean it shouldn't be on Vitor's MW resume.

 

[NorCalNinja]

Im quite used to revisionist history on Sherdog

 

[The RuthlessOne]

I don't care if he was accommodating Franklin or not, that has nothing to do with getting a title opportunity. Should we give every fighter who agrees to fight an opponent who comes in overweight an instant title opportunity in any weight class?? That seems to be what's happening here.

And you are fooling yourself if you think Vitor earned his shot at Jones. It was handed to him.

I don't think anyone thought he earned the shot, with no LHW wins since his UFC return, but it's not exactly like there were a ton of options. Everyone else turned it down.

 

[Hideo]

Lmfao @ betting lines not being representative of fighter ability

 

[cmw43]

After I saw the weigh ins I put

 

[rlm81]

I think Vitor gets too much credit from some on here, but not enough for nearly killing Matt Lindland when he did. Even though it was probably wrong, people still talked about Lindland as a legitimate threat to Anderson and other UFC MWs. Vitor's Lindland win and his Franklin win are IMO the most impressive thing he's done since losing to Henderson.

The comparison with Sonnen was rankings wise.
Sonnen is an unranked LHW fighter who was #2 MW before switching weight class.
Franklin was the #7 LHW fighter who was #2 MW before switching weight class.

 

[trane]

I don't care if he was accommodating Franklin or not, that has nothing to do with getting a title opportunity. Should we give every fighter who agrees to fight an opponent who comes in overweight an instant title opportunity in any weight class?? That seems to be what's happening here.

And you are fooling yourself if you think Vitor earned his shot at Jones. It was handed to him.

The win at the time was worthy of getting a title shot, in hindsight it's easy to act like he didn't deserve it.

And I never claimed Vitor earned a title fight with Jones. Nobody does. UFC needed someone to fight Jones at a certain date and that's it, nothing more.

 

[Dionysian]

I was hoping Vitor would demolish him for the repeated weight cheating, but the fact of the matter is the blatant ref cheating stains that win a bit. Never have I seen a ref pander to an audience/for one fighter THAT badly... completely indefensible imo. Honestly smacked of a backroom deal to punish/release AJ in response to his blatant inability to make weight at 2 weight classes.

 

[Dickson Gracie]

The comparison with Sonnen was rankings wise.
Sonnen is an unranked LHW fighter who was #2 MW before switching weight class.
Franklin was the #7 LHW fighter who was #2 MW before switching weight class.

I was agreeing that the Franklin win was impressive, and adding in the fact that his Lindland win is also impressive. Sorry if it wasn't clear.

 

[CrashStitches]

For some reason? Vitor fans simply ignore the fact he was gifted not one but TWO title shots. Winning at Franklin weight with an awkward strike shouldn't get you a shot at the GOAT, and beating a clearly depleted Rumble and homeless Akiyama shouldn't afford you a title shot with Jones.

TS, this must be the blatant ignorant revisionism you were talking about.

 

[djacobox372]

For some reason? Vitor fans simply ignore the fact he was gifted not one but TWO title shots. Winning at Franklin weight with an awkward strike shouldn't get you a shot at the GOAT, and beating a clearly depleted Rumble and homeless Akiyama shouldn't afford you a title shot with Jones.

I'm tired of the claim that he was "gifted" a title shot at MW.

He destroyed Franklin and Lindland in consecutive fights--that's enough to earn you a shot in the anemic MW division.

 

[nixkid]

I was hoping Vitor would demolish him for the repeated weight cheating, but the fact of the matter is the blatant ref cheating stains that win a bit. Never have I seen a ref pander to an audience/for one fighter THAT badly... completely indefensible imo. Honestly smacked of a backroom deal to punish/release AJ in response to his blatant inability to make weight at 2 weight classes.

Pretty much. The stand ups were ridiculous. Vitor probably would have ended up winning anyway because it seemed as if Rumble didn't even have to the gas tank to lay and pray for 3 rounds. But the fact remains that the stand ups were some of the quickest I've ever seen. If all fights were reffed like that then Jon Fitch might have a losing record in the UFC.