Relson Gracie Article (New Tournament System)

MrBen said:
The other guy deserves to win because he gave up dominant positions but his defense is good enough not to get submitted?

I don't think you realize how hard it is to finish guys especially the higher belt you get to. Of course you both could be phenoms and always finish people whenever you get dominant position,.
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Read the quote I was replying too I was applying that person's logic.
 
redaxe said:
I thought he was going to do some kind of innovative submission-only type format. I was pretty disappointed when I read what he was actually proposing.
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This. I really don't see what his rules are going to do to make BJJ competition "better."
 
redaxe said:
How is it "stalling" if you are in a dominant position? The guy on bottom should have the burden of escaping. That's the most retarded rule ever, I will never understand it. Thankfully as long as you're grabbing the collar and you at least make it look like you're going for a choke, you're not going to get called for "stalling."
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I think it is because they want people constantly attempting to win by submission, not points.
 
juji gatame said:
I agree on the submission win focus but not allowing certain leg locks or penalizing dominant positions would be degrading to the sport. Nobody but Gracie Barra purists would take part in this type of competition.
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Why would gracie barra guys want this? I don't know any GB guys that follow this line of thinking - and the big GB competitors absolutely do not! As a matter of fact, when Relson complained about sport bjj guys on fightworks podcast a while ago, he specifically called out GB for being too comfortable with the current sporting rules, and said that only Roger played "real" Gracie JJ.
 
MrBen said:
The other guy deserves to win because he gave up dominant positions but his defense is good enough not to get submitted?

I don't think you realize how hard it is to finish guys especially the higher belt you get to. Of course you both could be phenoms and always finish people whenever you get dominant position,.
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Of course it isn't always easy to finish, but that is where the skill of BJJ comes in.
There are a lot of strong ass dudes out there who don't train at all who could mount someone and stall. Does that mean they are better at BJJ?
Do you suggest that just sitting there and waiting for the clock to run out should be rewarded?
The whole idea behind a "dominant" position is that it is easier to submit from.
If the person who is in a "dominant" position can't finish his opponent, how dominant does that truly make the position?
 
Balto said:
The real crazy part is no points for passing half guard. What is that about? So if you pass from full guard to side control, you get three points, but if you get caught in the half guard and then pass, it's only one advantage?
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This rule will pretty much kill this tournament format. I can't even begin to fathom what he was thinking only awarding an advantage for passing half guard, but awarding 2 points for sweeping from half guard. If people have a problem with guard pulling under the IBJFF rules wait to they get a load of the amount of guard pulling you will see with this format.
 
I agree with Relson that stalling is an issue, but I think the issue is that current anti-stalling rules are not enforced (or at least not enforced evenly). I don't think that saying you have 20 or 30 seconds without attempting a sub is necessarily helpful either because you can throw a half-ass sub attempt all the while thinking of nothing but holding position.

The other concern is one of organization. If you want to raise the required rank for judging, where are you going to get enough high ranks that are not already either coaching/watching their students or preparing to compete themselves? I think that the bigger issue is to get people have been trained to referee and that thoroughly understand the rules and how to enforce them and understand what they are scoring.

I don't think that Relson is going to be able to "revolutionize" the tournament scene, as most of the tournaments I've been to that were run by him or his people were REALLY disorganized. Don't get me wrong, I like the guy and I like what he's trying to do but I don't think he'll able to push the ball down field, so-to-speak.
 
Here's the results of the online chat tonight with Relson.
--------------------------------------------

Question
"Could Relson explain why he doesn't feel passing half guard deserves any points?"

Relson Gracie
"When my Daddy made the rules it was meant to be fair. If the guy is gonna pass full guard, he has hard work to get the pass and defend the submissions at the same time. There are a lot of submissions from full guard. Half-guard is half of a full guard. Why should you get full points for passing half of a guard? That's the reason why there is only an advantage for passing the half-guard. It's not the full guard. How many submissions are there from the half guard compared to the full guard. They're not the same guard. That's why it's scored different."

Question
"How are you going to stop competitors from jumping into half guard to keep their opponent from scoring points for a full pass?"

Relson Gracie
"You are allowed to do that but it's a poor strategy. There are simple defenses for that. There's no point in doing that because the point is to submit your opponent. If you're going to jump half-guard and try to only sweep and win points, you're in the wrong tournament. You can't hold the half-guard for more than 30 seconds. You need to move."

Question
"Why create a new tournament system instead of trying to change the existing one?"

Relson Gracie
"I come from 1962. I come from the original Gracie Jiu-Jitsu tournament. The original one. The current tournaments are the ones that changed the rules. I was the first one to have a tournament in the USA and these are the original set of rules. The tournaments that came after mine are the ones that changed the rules. Not mine. The ones that came with the new rules are the ones that screwed up. My rules are the Helio Gracie rules and everything else that came after me are the ones that changed."

Question
"How are you going to enforce the sleeve holding rule? Will competitors be allowed to use spider guard to sweep within the 10 seconds?"

Relson Gracie
"Yes, 10 seconds is a long time on the mat. In 2 seconds, you can apply a triangle. Ten seconds is plenty of time to sweep a guy. If you want to compete in my tournament, you need to learn how to submit your opponent. You can't hold the sleeves forever just to try for a sweep. You have 10 seconds to do it. Helio Gracie didn't play for sweeps. You can't have your whole fight based on a sweep. You have 10 seconds. Otherwise, you're stalling. This is not a tournament for sleeve holders. This is a tournament for submissions."


Question
"How are you going to find enough qualified black belt referees for the tournaments?"

Relson Gracie
"I'm Relson Gracie. I have 25 blackbelts in my association. I have plenty of blackbelts to referee tournaments. Do you know where I come from? Everybody comes to my tournaments - Caique, Royler, Saulo - don't worry about that. I know plenty of black belts. That's my job to take care of the referees. If you have a complaint, come to me and let me know. We will review the complaint and fix it. I have 2,000 blackbelt friends in Brazil. I can handle it.


Question
"Why not just do a submission only tournament?"


Relson Gracie
"The problem is setting a time limit. If you have 2,000 competitors, how are you going to do a submission only tournament. It will go forever. You have to put a time limit on the tournament. If guys fight for an hour in one match, they can't even fight again because their bodies are so tired. The rules are meant to help force submissions. That's why we have time limits. You get more points overall in the circuit for a submission. Whoever has the most points at the end of the tour will make the most money."


Question
Is their going to be a Kid's division?

Relson Gracie
"100%. The kid's rules are a little different so check out the rules at Home page. We will have all kinds of kids competing for girls and boys."


Relson Gracie

"My intention is to bring the original rules back to the people. These are the Helio Gracie rules. Same rules and it's safe for competitors. We don't want any steroids in the tournament. The tournament will be good for the athletes - they will make money. The more sponsors we get, the higher the prize money will be. My intention is to make everything better for Jiu-Jitsu competitors. We want people to say we like this tournament, it's fun, safe and the matches are exciting to watch. No stalling and no dangerous techniques."


Another note is there will be two weigh-ins. One on Friday night and one when your bracket is called the day of your match. If your weight is higher on the day of your match, you will be bumped up to the higher weight bracket. This is designed to discourage competitors from cutting weight.

Also, only perfect throws will score 2 points. Wrestling style take downs will only score an advantage. Judo style throws landed fully will score 2 points.
 
tf said:
Here's the results of the online chat tonight with Relson.
--------------------------------------------

Question
"Could Relson explain why he doesn't feel passing half guard deserves any points?"

Relson Gracie
"When my Daddy made the rules it was meant to be fair. If the guy is gonna pass full guard, he has hard work to get the pass and defend the submissions at the same time. There are a lot of submissions from full guard. Half-guard is half of a full guard. Why should you get full points for passing half of a guard? That's the reason why there is only an advantage for passing the half-guard. It's not the full guard. How many submissions are there from the half guard compared to the full guard. They're not the same guard. That's why it's scored different."

Question
"How are you going to stop competitors from jumping into half guard to keep their opponent from scoring points for a full pass?"

Relson Gracie
"You are allowed to do that but it's a poor strategy. There are simple defenses for that. There's no point in doing that because the point is to submit your opponent. If you're going to jump half-guard and try to only sweep and win points, you're in the wrong tournament. You can't hold the half-guard for more than 30 seconds. You need to move."

Question
"Why create a new tournament system instead of trying to change the existing one?"

Relson Gracie
"I come from 1962. I come from the original Gracie Jiu-Jitsu tournament. The original one. The current tournaments are the ones that changed the rules. I was the first one to have a tournament in the USA and these are the original set of rules. The tournaments that came after mine are the ones that changed the rules. Not mine. The ones that came with the new rules are the ones that screwed up. My rules are the Helio Gracie rules and everything else that came after me are the ones that changed."

Question
"How are you going to enforce the sleeve holding rule? Will competitors be allowed to use spider guard to sweep within the 10 seconds?"

Relson Gracie
"Yes, 10 seconds is a long time on the mat. In 2 seconds, you can apply a triangle. Ten seconds is plenty of time to sweep a guy. If you want to compete in my tournament, you need to learn how to submit your opponent. You can't hold the sleeves forever just to try for a sweep. You have 10 seconds to do it. Helio Gracie didn't play for sweeps. You can't have your whole fight based on a sweep. You have 10 seconds. Otherwise, you're stalling. This is not a tournament for sleeve holders. This is a tournament for submissions."


Question
"How are you going to find enough qualified black belt referees for the tournaments?"

Relson Gracie
"I'm Relson Gracie. I have 25 blackbelts in my association. I have plenty of blackbelts to referee tournaments. Do you know where I come from? Everybody comes to my tournaments - Caique, Royler, Saulo - don't worry about that. I know plenty of black belts. That's my job to take care of the referees. If you have a complaint, come to me and let me know. We will review the complaint and fix it. I have 2,000 blackbelt friends in Brazil. I can handle it.


Question
"Why not just do a submission only tournament?"


Relson Gracie
"The problem is setting a time limit. If you have 2,000 competitors, how are you going to do a submission only tournament. It will go forever. You have to put a time limit on the tournament. If guys fight for an hour in one match, they can't even fight again because their bodies are so tired. The rules are meant to help force submissions. That's why we have time limits. You get more points overall in the circuit for a submission. Whoever has the most points at the end of the tour will make the most money."


Question
Is their going to be a Kid's division?

Relson Gracie
"100%. The kid's rules are a little different so check out the rules at Home page. We will have all kinds of kids competing for girls and boys."


Relson Gracie

"My intention is to bring the original rules back to the people. These are the Helio Gracie rules. Same rules and it's safe for competitors. We don't want any steroids in the tournament. The tournament will be good for the athletes - they will make money. The more sponsors we get, the higher the prize money will be. My intention is to make everything better for Jiu-Jitsu competitors. We want people to say we like this tournament, it's fun, safe and the matches are exciting to watch. No stalling and no dangerous techniques."


Another note is there will be two weigh-ins. One on Friday night and one when your bracket is called the day of your match. If your weight is higher on the day of your match, you will be bumped up to the higher weight bracket. This is designed to discourage competitors from cutting weight.

Also, only perfect throws will score 2 points. Wrestling style take downs will only score an advantage. Judo style throws landed fully will score 2 points.
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His answers make sense to me....it is simple.....if you don't like his rules don't compete in his tournament.:icon_lol:
 
I really enjoyed this article, I gotta agree with Relson. I hate when people just hold position for the win, you should finish the fight.
 
the wrestling takedowns penalty is kinda whack considering the other rules.


but i like it.
 
Relson's response is pretty much nonsensical. The logic gaps in his explanations are astounding.

The biggest one is his assertion that since half guard is, literally, one half as effective as full guard, it deserves less credit. That is absurd. It is just called half guard; you cannot take that literally. Half guard is not half as effective as full guard. It is very dangerous, and there are lots of options for the guy on the bottom. By Relson's logic, a single leg takedown should be worth half as much as a double leg takedown; just do the math! The names of positions are not to be taken literally, and it's kind of crazy to actually hear someone trying to justify that.

Relson then skips over the pulling half guard question by saying there are counters to that. Which counters would those be? I believe he can't give any good examples because there are none. Then he tries to explain that people won't game the rules in his tournament anyway. Is that not exactly the problem he is complaining about at IBJJF tournaments currently?

Then Relson says that people will only be able to hold half guard for 30 seconds anyway due to the stalling rules. Yet his stalling rule states that you cannot hold a DOMINANT position for more than 30 seconds. Somehow bottom half guard just went from a worthless, 50% effective shadow of a full guard in the first question to suddenly a dominant position now in the next question. I'm not sure Relson even remembers the rules he laid out previously.

His appeal to authority in running tournaments is also pretty hollow considering that he basically turned the Arnolds into the worst run BJJ tournament in the country while he was in charge of it. People historically run from Relson Gracie tournaments, not to them. He needs to show that he is going to make a change, and I just don't see how these nonsensical rules and justifications demonstrate that at all.
 
Relson has managed to take a nice concept, having a pro am circuit with cash prizes for winning the tournament and an overall circuit champion, and completely ruin it by implementing just flat out weird rules.

I really just don't get his line of thinking when it comes to half guard. Back in Helio's day, half guard may have been a poor position, but half guard has become highly developed and dangerous. I am also really curious about these excellent counters to someone pulling half guard are.
 
Balto said:
Relson's response is pretty much nonsensical. The logic gaps in his explanations are astounding.

The biggest one is his assertion that since half guard is, literally, one half as effective as full guard, it deserves less credit. That is absurd. It is just called half guard; you cannot take that literally. Half guard is not half as effective as full guard. It is very dangerous, and there are lots of options for the guy on the bottom.
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I agree with you and I dig playing half guard since my full guard is poop but Relson has a point in one sense. In a fight with punches, full guard is a better position to be in than half for most people. Easier to defend punches, more options for escape/sweeps,etc.. Since Relson and Helio's side constantly promote their JJ as being fight-orientated, that could explain their poo-pooing of half guard.
 
That was a good read. Thanks, TS, for sharing.
 
MickCollins said:
I agree with you and I dig playing half guard since my full guard is poop but Relson has a point in one sense. In a fight with punches, full guard is a better position to be in than half for most people. Easier to defend punches, more options for escape/sweeps,etc.. Since Relson and Helio's side constantly promote their JJ as being fight-orientated, that could explain their poo-pooing of half guard.
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Oh I agree that half guard is not very good at all in MMA. But that is exactly my point.

If Relson's goal is to make BJJ competition more closely mirror MMA, why in the world would he not give points for passing half guard? If anything, his rules strongly encourage half guard pulling instead of full guard pulling or even takedowns.

So instead of making BJJ more like MMA, it will become even less like MMA since people will pull half guard with impunity. There will be no punches in Relson's tournament to penalize this strategy, nor will there even be the threat of points being scored to penalize it either.
 
that 10 seconds sleeve rule is interesting.

Do you have to let go of the sleeves after 10 seconds? how long for before you can grab again?

Is he planning to ban certain sleeves holds as well?
 
lechien said:
that 10 seconds sleeve rule is interesting.

Do you have to let go of the sleeves after 10 seconds? how long for before you can grab again?

Is he planning to ban certain sleeves holds as well?
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I wonder if this also includes the basics collar and sleeve control or is he referring to just the double sleeve control or 2 on 1 control.
 
teamcarvalho said:
I wonder if this also includes the basics collar and sleeve control or is he referring to just the double sleeve control or 2 on 1 control.
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To be honest, I like that rule anyway.

I have developed a game which rely on sleeves control for so many years that it is not funny anymore.

I am trying to counter such ingrained dependence by training 1 x Nogi and 2 X MMA per week.
 
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