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Regarding training to failure.

Discussion in 'Strength & Conditioning Discussion' started by krellik, Nov 15, 2005.

  1. krellik

    krellik Gimli son of Cisco

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    If I have understand it corectly training to failure isnt the best way to train for max strength. And if I understand corectly that is the common opinion on this board.

    Now to some help here. Im in an argument on another board wether or not it is good to train to failure regularely to become strong. I got the lingering suspision that im debating with a bunch of bodybuilders even though im at a martial art site.
    So what im wondering is if you got some good links or articles to exactly why you shouldnt train to failure regularely. Or atleast feed me with some good arguments..;)

    Besides it something I have been wanting to read up on anyhow....

    Thanks in advance
     
  2. Grady

    Grady Blue Belt

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    I'm also interested in understanding this too. I usually do 2-4 sets per exercise, and the last one I do reps until failure. If that is a bad thing to do, I certainly want to know otherwsie. I want to maximize strength and power gains, followed by increase in lean mass.
     
  3. Jay M.

    Jay M. Yellow Belt

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    I know that regularly training your body to failure leads to your nervous system accepting that failure as normal. Partial movement training is much better for acclaimating your nervous system to progressive overload.
     
  4. Ted-P

    Ted-P Brown Belt

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    I guess not the most efficient way I think, but........

    For people who can only lift very few times, wouldn't training til failure be a smart idea?
     
  5. Jay M.

    Jay M. Yellow Belt

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    Training to failure sometimes is not bad but I would limit it to maybe only as a change-up from heavy lifting. Heavier weights and lighter assistance exercises for hypertrophy works best for me.
     
  6. Wolverine

    Wolverine Green Belt

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    Man oh man if Carnal was here and read this.

    Let me beat Urban to this:

    "Training to failure is training to fail".

    Wolverine
    ///
     
  7. Noskill

    Noskill Created Monkey

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    The concrete reasons I know why one should not train to failure are that
    1)when you fail your form necessarily breaks down and your nervous system records that form. This is just the idea that training to failure teaches you to fail.
    2) By training to failure you will hit a plateau sooner. CNS burnout.

    I don't know of any studies to back these up, but I think there exist some. Maybe ENTROPY...
     
  8. anvar

    anvar Guest

    i assume your a fighter because your on a fighting forum...Training to failure is horrible for a athlete...you will be fatigued, which will lead to poor preformance and possible injury.
     
  9. Lard-ass

    Lard-ass Sodomizer

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    Question: what do failure mean? Lifting until you fail the last rep, or just beeing able to squeeze out the last rep (but still not failing).

    The reason I ask is that Ive heard people on this forum say that you should leave a rep or two in the "tank", i.e. lifting and not do those hard last 1-2 reps.

    So, which one is it?


    And another question: does this apply to whatever rep-range? I get the impression that not training to failure is more important if you do low rep with heavy weights.
    What about when you train in 5-10 rep range and looking for strength and size, is it still a bad thing to train to failure?
     
  10. BeRGLeZ

    BeRGLeZ Ramenbowl

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    Then where does Doggcrapp fit into this ??
    So many varied opinions, understandably alot of new lifters must get lost as to what is the right way to go.
     
  11. DeltaSigChi4

    DeltaSigChi4 Banned Banned

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    The United States ARMY disagrees with Urban, you and whoever that Carnal guy is as well. Really.

    E
     
  12. Ian Coe

    Ian Coe Silver Belt Professional Fighter

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    Stay in OT delta, you have no place wandering into regions that don't involve wanking and hovering over your computer writing childish responses.

    You realise the lowest form of argument is 'because such and such said so'. Its the same reasoning as homocidal idiots who kill people because 'god told them so'
     
  13. Jay M.

    Jay M. Yellow Belt

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    So many of this forums problems could be resolved by checking the fucking stickies.
     
  14. farmboy

    farmboy Banned Banned

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    That's not a very good source. The drill instructors, especially, just use P.T. as more of a punishment and threat than anything. They aren't trying to build you up. They want to break you down. That's really the only time in the Army that you go to muscle failure. When you're getting smoked.
     
  15. Grady

    Grady Blue Belt

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    Personally, I read through a lot of the stickies (but not everything), and it seems that the consensus there is that training to failure hurts you as you train your CNS to accept failure as a regular part of your training, thus limiting your progress.

    ie. train to failure, you will end up making less progress in the long run as you are training yourself to not make reps.

    The flip side (perhaps a traditional view?) is that when you train to failure you are pushing your body to the max and causing a greater response and adaptation to handling greater loads and stress.

    I just didn't see any studies there to back up either argument. No doubt I missed some references. It seemed just like personal experience or maybe annecdotal evidence cited. I think I am going to Google some studies on it.

    Heck, if I personally wouldn't mind not taking my last sets to failure -- but it just feels sort of like wimping out on effort! Those last couple of reps are the killer. Heck if it is scientifically better to stop and leave 1-2 reps in the tank on each set, my workouts are going to be a lot easier.
     
  16. krellik

    krellik Gimli son of Cisco

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    Was this fucking directed at me and my thread?;)

    Im a bit suprised that I havent goten a more clear response on this matter yet, especially as the topic seems to be sherdog strengt-power dogma.

    Im puting my hopes to Urban and Entropy to come and bring some light to this subject...
     
  17. HULKAMANIA

    HULKAMANIA Blue Belt

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    Alright, fellas. Here's the lowdown:

    Training to failure basically means one thing, namely that you don't need a spotter to finish your reps. The spotter only spots you if you miscalculate how many reps you have in you or you manage to injure yourself mid-lift. He's not there to help you finish those last couple reps. If you want that kind of help, go get into the Smith Machine.

    So, no, avoiding failure doesn't mean you pansy out on your lifts. It doesn't mean that you have some strict 1 to 2 reps beneath failure scheme, either. It means that if you can get 5 out, get 5 out. If you need help to get a 6th out, get 5 out.

    Everyone who talked about the CNS is right. Training to failure ingrains a bad habit into your head and your nervous system; it says, "Yeah not completing the motion is a good thing--it shows that I'm working hard." You practice like you play.

    Also, if you have help from your spotter every lift, your form will get sloppy. It should be on your shoulders to control and guide the bar throughout the full range of motion for every lift. That's what folks mean when they tell you to make sure your form is rock solid.

    Now I don't know any studies to this effect. I do know, however, that it's pretty much a consensus among powerlifters and olympic lifters. I suppose if you want some scientific study with all those sweet citations, you'll have to wait for ENTROPY. I know that Cmart knows his shit in this area, too, but I don't know if he's posting right now.

    And one last thing: the US Army doesn't give a shit about peak strength. When they start fielding champion powerlifters and MMAers, I'll start caring about their training programs. They're interested in producing tough, tireless soldiers who can cart around assloads of equipment all day in the desert and still be fresh enough to smoke some Iraqi heads during the night. They're not interested in lifting weights. Get real.
     
  18. Grady

    Grady Blue Belt

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    Cool, that sounds good to me. Nice summary of the anti-failure method.
    90% of the time my estimate is exactly correct, so I am going to base my rep attempts on that, if I switch my methods.

    I'm going to miss out on surprises though. Ever think you had nothing left, but somehow you pump out 2-3 more reps? That is a good feeling.
     
  19. PariahCarey

    PariahCarey Purple Belt

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    -the stickies are not metaphysically indisputable information, helpful and i've learned from them but not down from Moses
    -i like training to failure and like Ted-P said sometimes if you can't train frequently, training to failure keeps my size and strength
    -definitley more cns work= less intensity at JKD so i listen to my body...sometimes the JKD focus' more on learning skills, especially weapons training, where entire classes are necessary to go over safety sometimes, so if i got plenty of gas in the tank to train i push it
    -as an ex-marine usually most people are doing the crazy physically demanding stuff when young (18-25) and you do usually get a decents nights sleep (although maybe not during war)...just marching around all day builds you up...some guys break down...but some guys bodies seem to adapt and at some point nothing phases you physically and you go thru an unbelievable stage where you feel that all you've heard about overtraining, rest, and recovery is psychosomatic. No its not powerlifting but you do gain muscle and become strong...try carrying a 50lbs. pack, a 30lbs radio, and a bulky motherfucking heavy ass 81mm mortar baseplate on a forced march and see if your cns gets taxed or not...
     
  20. CoachB40

    CoachB40 White Belt

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    Delta didn't say that he agreed with them, but he is correct. The Army does believe in training to failure and they are absolutely wrong. Unfortunately there are people leading P.T. that have no clue what they are doing, they just do what their NCO's had passed onto them. In fact the master fitness trainer that I have had the pleasure of knowing(lmao) was a complete moron when it came to the gym. He always tries to come across like he knows, but he doesn't.
     

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