Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by Os3y3ris, Nov 14, 2020.
Yes, they existed before the Danaher hype.
The thing is, Danaher used violent thugs to threaten opponents and disrupt training camps. So that's why some psycho with a hunting knife is running things.
Everyone else was just, I dunno, training systematic leg locks:
*lol at my pre lacing system. But yeah, other people did this.
Hmm, not so sure. Helio invented leverage and then john invented the leg lock system.
Sorry, what was that? Kinda foggy. Someone beat me with a metal box after a match.
Honestly I think the first guy to really focus it on the modern age was Eddie Cummings but Danaher ran with it. In fairness, I don't think Cummings cared enough to expose it to a wider audience so without Danaher leg locks in general would be less known of...obviously everyone would learn eventually but maybe we'd all be a few years behind.
A coach makes a DVD, he never talked about being the inventor of anything.
He organised content in a way to have a pretty complete system about leg locks and that 8 hours DVD gives you pretty much everything about getting heelhooks from entries to the actual submission.
The best DVD's are not about showing unheard of technique. It's about a guy showing is game or showing a system that makes sense to someone who wants to play that kind of game. It helps you to fine tune stuff and it gives you new techniques in your tool box. Nobody is talking about reinventing the wheel.
Cummings is not the first. What? Are you guys serious? Its beenna thing for decades. Lol
Yeah. And he's not the only one with a complete system. There was just a thread claiming such and someone in this thread thinks that cummings was first when it reality there have been thousands of effective systematic leg lockers for decades.
Most people just listened when their coach banned them which is why the ignorance level was so high.
There been people talking about leg lock systems for years.
Roy Harris had an elaborate system 15 years ago.
so did dean lister.
Than there was Ryan hall with all the 50/50 stuff which I’m pretty sure he picked up from Lloyd Irving.
the only thing that’s really changed is the Jiu Jitsu community has the blessing to practice them now. Danahers capitalizing on that wave.
Good for him.
Yeah, the real sea change was the fact that someone with high status in the bjj community said 'okay, you can do leg locks now'. And so then once the previously profane object that theretofore only the reclusive, those outside of the bjj tradition, and or those of natural nobility would touch with regularity, was anointed with the holy oil, all those great numbers of them that are susceptible to the winds of social validation could then say 'okay, leglocks are bjj now'.
Cummings basically did what Danaher did first - yes. Before Gordon Ryan was doing it, Cummings was with the same entries, control etc.
Did Cumming invent leg locks? No...obviously not. Even before BJJ they were used in catch wrestling then other BJJ guys used them. But I stand by my point that Danaher took the credit of Cummings who was strangely enough doing it in the same gym before Danaher and Ryan etc came along and started doing his whole 'system' thing.
Ryan Hall old 50/50 stuff originated from Dean Lister. I doubt any technical innovation came from Lloy he is not a high level athlete but supports the team financially.
Before any of them you had Daisuke Yamaji, also at the same gym, who was heavily influenced by studying Shooto and Pancrase, apparently.
You might not like Irvin but he was a very, very successful coach.
Does not mean he was responsible for the technical innovations in the team. His athletes don't share a style.
Them not sharing a style doesn't mean he was or wasn't responsible. Often coaches are "responsible" in subtle ways, like pointing people in the right direction, encouraging them and giving them the proper tools to realize their own style, etc. Or some of them have enough wisdom to realize that different styles benefit different types.
I don't know the case, but I know that a couple of friends of mine got their blackbelts under Lloyd Irvin and they were very good and they seemed to have a lot of respect for him. His dojo seemed to have a very business-first, training-first, socializing-last sort of environment that they valued. The one I rolled with the most was an x-guard guy and obviously, Lloyd isn't associated with that, but maybe that is just a sign that he developed students who knew how to learn and expand their styles.
But I don't really know one way or the other, I never met the guy and never went to his gym.
No, LI was the first "King of Leg Locks". Thats true. There were three "Princes of leg locks", one being unrelated, one being myself and the other being the white dude from TLI who's name I forget.
Lloyd's culture is a combo of cybersecurity and actual jiujitsu. He hired a man known as Rexxfield to do his dirty work. Rexxfield snitched on him.
Sure, responsible as in telling Ryan to focus on that and providing him opportunity to study.
If the athletes have disjoint styles its strong evidence that they aren't receiving top down instruction but rely on self study more.
It's super hard to provide high level technical instruction to a whole bunch of completely different athletes.
50/50 heel hook knowledge shared at LI.
Look at Aly getting raped from 50/50 despite taking more roids then the whole Atos competition team all together.
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