Real Muay Thai

There for example to easier get amateurs level history in Lithuania.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evaldas_Petrauskas
Bronze in Olympics.2012.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daugirdas_Šemiotas
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egidijus_Kavaliauskas
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonas_Čepulis
Silver.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danas_Pozniakas
1 Olympic gold in SU times.
3 gold 1 silver in European Continentals.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ričardas_Tamulis
Silver in Olympics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romualdas_Murauskas
Bronze in Olympics

Not bad for small country with approx just 3 mil inhabitants.
 
The one sure thing i've picked up from all this is that you seem very sensitive to insinuations that thai fighters, broadly construed, might not have as good hands, in a relative sense, as they might other tools. Or perhaps more generally to insinuations that thai fighters, broadly construed, might not be 100%, at anything, in any case? 'Sure X might not train Y as much as Z but also dont think that this might have any meaningful consequences.' Lets have that cake and eat it, too.

It all reminds me of conversations that were common in the 00's and early 10's with bjj purists; 'sure i might not train takedowns, but i could take people down if i wanted too anyways', but you know, that's not how it works. Everything in the fight game is about trade-offs; time you spend on one thing, is time you don't have to spend on anything else.

I feel like there's a couple arguments in play here; Thais don't have as good hands relative to the rest of their skill sets whereas foreigners are equally good at punching & all the other stuff, and Thais don't have as good hands as foreigners. One could make a reasonable case for the former, the latter on the other hand is questionable at best.
 
One could make a reasonable case for the former, the latter on the other hand is questionable at best.


Is it though? When Petchpanomrung beat Van Roosemalen in their rematch, it wasn't exactly because he was out punching him.

Like, what is the motivation to close one's eyes to what should be obvious trends? That's a rhetorical question by the way.

What it looks like is the real argument comes down to the fact that there is a deeper talent pool in muay thai, or for thais in muay thai specifically (naturally). So of course, odds are you will get more highly accomplished fighters who can be relatively dangerous even in areas they may not focus on, relative to some other clades in the same venues. But then of course the desired rhetorical high ground would be to take 'credit' for the effects of a numbers game as rather something more 'inherent' to background methodology itself, as well.

To once against draw on the analogy to old bjj drama, it's like the classic 'training gi makes you better at no-gi' argument; and how is that one might wonder? 'Just look at all the guys who train in gi winning no-gi comps like adcc'; glossing over the fact that people from gi backgrounds competing for slots also vastly outnumbered people from other backgrounds in those competitions.
 
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Is it though? When Petchpanomrung beat Van Roosemalen in their rematch, it wasn't exactly because he was out punching him.

Except he did out punch him. Petch beat him soundly in every area.

What it looks like is the real argument comes down to the fact that there is a deeper talent pool in muay thai, or for thais in muay thai specifically (naturally). So of course, odds are you will get more highly accomplished fighters who can be relatively dangerous even in areas they may not focus on, relative to some other clades in the same venues. But then of course the desired rhetorical high ground would be to take 'credit' for the effects of a numbers game as rather something more 'inherent' to background methodology itself, as well.

Skill level in Thailand is higher, who could've known? When your average Thai fighter has 5-10 times as many fights as his foreign counterpart, what do you think is gonna happen?
 
Except he did out punch him. Petch beat him soundly in every area.

Technically literally he didn't; 65 strikes landed with hands vs 27.


Skill level in Thailand is higher, who could've known? When your average Thai fighter has 5-10 times as many fights as his foreign counterpart, what do you think is gonna happen?

Yes a question of differences in talent pools would be a reasonable conclusion; if not the only, then certainly a major reason for observed phenomena. But one which was also not so consciously acknowledged heretofore, naturally leaving more flattering implications open; 'yes people in B may not train not train X as much as Y or Z, but they are just as good at X as people in A or C anyways, because reasons', 'thanks to the inherent mystical virtue of B, you can not do thing and still do thing', 'i personally identify with B and need to dispute any apparent devalidations, even if it involves aspects that arent even that valuable for success in B anyways', and et cetera.
 
Technically literally he didn't; 65 strikes landed with hands vs 27.

Ah yes, the good ol' Glory punch counters, which are about as accurate as Adelaide Byrd. <45>
 
Let's see, not that much anymore is interesting how bad or good farangs are considered for MT, even K-1 doesn't looks that lucrative for young athletes.
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Why punch counters are necessity, if boxing skills are tested against guys like Surbiel judges aren't necessity, there with doctor and secretary is enough.
 
Ah yes, the good ol' Glory punch counters, which are about as accurate as Adelaide Byrd. <45>


There's only so far im willing to go and I aint interested in playing those kinds of games right now, so i wont.

A deeper point is touched on here, which is that petch made a big effort to work on his hands more after the first time he lost to Roosmalen; if the apparent argument is 'someone training muay thai should be able to have hands just as good (if not better) without necessarily working on them so much', then examples like that would be contradictions of this sentiment.
 
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The one sure thing i've picked up from all this is that you seem very sensitive to insinuations that thai fighters, broadly construed, might not have as good hands, in a relative sense, as they might other tools.
Look, i'm not debating about who is more sensitive, who has been around for a longer time or which forum poster is a superior fighter etc, i don't care. My argument is regarding the notion that Thais lack in the hands department, which i disagree with, and i've provided arguments to support my claim. If you disagree with me just refute my arguments.

Or perhaps more generally to insinuations that thai fighters, broadly construed, might not be 100%, at anything, in any case? 'Sure X might not train Y as much as Z but also dont think that this might have any meaningful consequences.' Lets have that cake and eat it, too.
In a relative sense to their kicks? The discussion was about in a relative sense compared to the skills of non-thai muay thai fighters, not relative to their own other skillsets.
 
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Well, there not nationaltiy is discussed but MT. ;)
Yes, it's not country vs country but about Thai Muay Thai fighters vs non-thai Muay Thai fighters. I don't know how many boxing medals pure boxers (non-muay thai) in thailand have won, that's an entirely different discussion.

Western muay thai practitioners (and kickboxers) in general say that thais have inferior hands to them, yet they have not shown superior hand skills in the ring. After all these pages I still haven't gotten any examples of the non-thai muay thai fighters would be superior in the hands department, that should be quite telling ;). I mentioned a few like Tenshin and Petrosyan, who have possibly some of the best hands in standup fighting, and Rodtang and Petchmorakot were competitive in a kickboxing ruleset :)
 
A deeper point is touched on here, which is that petch made a big effort to work on his hands more after the first time he lost to Roosmalen; if the apparent argument is 'someone training muay thai should be able to have hands just as good (if not better) without necessarily working on them so much', then examples like that would be contradictions of this sentiment.
Well you have to ask yourself the real reason why Sittichai and Petchpanomrung didn't get the decision win in the first place. Was it because they lacked punching skills or was it because the judges robbed them, saying that their kicks don't score? It only makes sense to train on things that increase your chances of winning, which in this case, they had to punch more in order to get the win in the judges eyes.

Petchpanomrung won a boxing tournament in Thailand before his second fight with RvR i believe.


Nobody said that (especially in a kickboxing setting) "someone training muay thai should be able to have hands just as good (if not better) without necessarily working on them so much". If Petchpanomrung improved his hands within a year or so, that does not contradict my point in any way. In either case, Sittichai and Petchpanomrung proved to have superior hands to RVR. Based on the empirical evidence, it's hard to conclude that thai muay thai fighters in general lack in the hands department (compared to their non-thai counterparts).
 
. But then of course the desired rhetorical high ground would be to take 'credit' for the effects of a numbers game as rather something more 'inherent' to background methodology itself, as well
Ok, now i see your point and realize we're talking about different things. You talk about the methodology, i talk about what actually happens in the ring. As far as the methodology, it's way more abstract and difficult to compare. At least we should keep in mind that punching is different in muay thai, kickboxing and boxing. Guys that use their hands heavily in muay thai do not tend to be the best boxers.
 
Western muay thai practitioners (and kickboxers) in general say that thais have inferior hands to them, yet they have not shown superior hand skills in the ring.
I don't care.
In boxing?

After all these pages I still haven't gotten any examples of the non-thai muay thai fighters would be superior in the hands department, that should be quite telling ;).
However If you will bring in conversation european kick boxers that competed or compete also in pro boxing, if you wish to prove something, this isn't bad.
For what minimal price you agree to do pro boxing bout, 4 rounder in EU?
 
I don't care.
In boxing?
??

To be honest i don't really understand what you are talking about.

Fine if you don't care. I do care if people make false claims without any evidence :)

However If you will bring in conversation european kick boxers that competed or compete also in pro boxing, if you wish to prove something,
Well i would appreciate if anyone listed the european kickboxers or muay thai fighters that did well in boxing. I clearly asked you guys to mention the fighters that have superior hands to thais. The ones i know that fought in boxing are Tyrone Spong, Nieky Holzken, Enriko Gogokhia, Yoann Kongolo, Albert Kraus. Sergey Lipinets and Chris Algieri are said to have been kickboxers but i don't think at a high level.
 
This.

Boxing =/= punching.

You'll find karateka with good hands, but you don't call them boxers. Thai style muay thai has more in common with boxing than western styles of muay thai and kickboxing do.

I would disagree with your stement. IMO, both western muay thai, and kickboxing, have a more boxing influenced style, and both styles tend to be more centered around the hands, as well as more of a bouncy, boxing style footwork and movement.
 
Depends on the style. Thai Muay Mat don't typically have a western boxing style. Dutch kickboxers are more of combo spammers. Muay Fimeu (technicians) is more similar to boxing and make better boxers than muay mat (ie heavy punchers). in general.







Similarly, kickboxing technicians like Gogokhia and Holzken are the kickboxers with a right style for boxing, not the combo spammers.
 
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Depends on the style. Thai Muay Mat don't typically have a western boxing style. Dutch kickboxers are more of combo spammers. Muay Fimeu is more similar to boxing and make bettee boxers than muay mat (ie heavy punchers).







Similarly, kickboxing technicians like Gogokhia and Holzken are the kickboxers with a right style for boxing, not the combo spammers.


I agee with your statement. But I dont see what you mean by it depends on the style..."what" does "it" depend on?

Kicboxing and American MT have a western boxing influence. When I hear good hands, or better boxing, i relate it to the art or sport of pure boxing, elusiveness, fast punches, and long combos. and as you have already said, muay mat does not fit that description. Muay Femur fighters are technical fighters, and well rounded fighters, they are tricky fighters, while a muay femur fighting style is more similar to boxing in the elusiveness and tricky department, it is not a hand dominant style of fighting like muay mat is, its a well rounded style of fighting. I wouldnt relate a muay femur to better good hands, i would relate it to good well rounded muay thai, tricky and technical muay thai....I wouldnt relate muay mat style of fighting to better hands either, as the definition of muay mat, is pretty much the exact opposite of the art of hitting and not getting hit. That being said, i suppose neither a muay femur or muay mat is lacking in the hand department. But I think your right, in regards to of all the styles of muay thai, a muay femur, probably has the best hands, and most similar style to western boxing.

everyones interpretation to better boxing or good hands may be different, but when i hear those words, i relate it to the pure sport of boxing, and a fighter being able to incorporate it into their fighting style. Perhaps a guy like pakaroon with all of his head movement would be a good example. He boxed, and carried it over to his MT.
 
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