Real Muay Thai

[shincheckin]

Can you name the thais that lack in the hand department?

Its a generalization. Sure if I do some searching I could provide you examples of thais whos hands are not the greatest. Take Sam A for example, not the best at boxing, his style of fighting is centered around his big kicks. Compare his style of fighting to a guy like gabriel varga, or haggerty, or anyone else with good hands you can think of. Anyways, generally speaking foreigners tend to have better hands, while the thais tend to be better in the kicking and clinch game. im sure you know this already. of course theres thais with good hands, just like theres foreigners with good kicks or what not. im really not too big on following fighters to seriously like a baseball fan able to a guys batting average or what not. I train, watch, study, learn, learn by watching fights, but dont follow specific fighters very closely.

in before: not true cause this one time this one guy

 

[Kanka]

Take Sam A for example, not the best at boxing, his style of fighting is centered around his big kicks.

If Sam-A and Haggerty were the same size, i'd sure bet my money on Sam-A in a boxing match.

 

[Kanka]

Anyways, generally speaking foreigners tend to have better hands, while the thais tend to be better in the kicking and clinch game.

I could mention a few, for instance Yodkitsada doesn't have very good hands. But he is not representative. Tawanchai seems to struggle in kickboxing range, not sure if it's the kickboxing setting he struggles with or if he lacks in the hand department. Jomthong Chuwattana had high level boxing skills but struggled in kickboxing against Qiu Jianliang, Marat Grigorian and Superbon.

in before: not true cause this one time this one guy

To me it seems like you're the one using that logic to make generalizations.

If a thai has superior hands to a "farang" (which happens quite often) i won't use that to make a generalizations.

I think Ramon Dekkers is the most typical example people use to create this myth that thais have shitty hands. In reality even Dekkers himself got outboxed by thais. For instance check Dekkers vs Sangtiennoi I and II (Dekkers lost two and won their third fight).

 

[Kanka]

But exceptional guys are naturally just that: exceptions. So such would also run contrary to the aim in the first place of making more general observations; about the thousands and tens of thousands of guys whose names you don't remember, which would form the expressions of characteristic trends in a tradition.

So the logic is that, if you consider low level fighters, they have bad hands I'd certainly agree with that comment but low level fighters in any region would have bad hands in general. I thought the discussion was about high level muay thai.

 

[eternaldarkness]

As Wayne parr once said. "Westerners trying to grapple look like two dogs trying to make puppies".

 

[rmongler]

So the logic is that, if you consider low level fighters, they have bad hands I'd certainly agree with that comment but low level fighters in any region would have bad hands in general. I thought the discussion was about high level muay thai.

I think you're being disingenuous.

 

[Kanka]

I think you're being disingenuous.

I can see why i come across that way but i'm merely trying to make a logical argument based on what you wrote.

At the highest level you have some guys that (relatively speaking) have bad hands, bad knees or bad kicks. I haven't seen Kulabdam and Rodtang use their knees effectively for instance, but i'm not going to say thais have shitty knees.

What about all the thais that proved to have superior hands to their western opponents? Does it mean thais in general have better hands? Based on the information i have, i can't really draw a conclusion. But if i did, i'd at least have some examples or a logical argument.

What i can say pretty confidently is that:

The average westerner gym focuses more on punches, compared to thai gyms in general. Japanese and Chinese aswell it seems like, although they have different approaches than westerner fighters.

This does not necessarily mean they'll be better though, many still got outboxed by thais.

For instance:
Dekkers by Sangtiennoi
Liam Harrison by Rodlek
Haggerty by Rodtang

Some top thais are more clinch based, and have not developed the skills to fight in a ruleset where clinching isn't allowed. But they're one out of many different styles within Thailand, wouldn't generalize based on those. Muay thai fighters from thailand won way more boxing awards than fighters in western muay thai and kickboxing. Probably more than MMA aswell.

Maybe it could be true that the variance in boxing skills is higher among thai fighters. Ie many with good boxing skills, aswell as many with not so good boxing skills, since some gyms don't focus so much on boxing.

 

[shincheckin]

I could mention a few, for instance Yodkitsada doesn't have very good hands. But he is not representative. Tawanchai seems to struggle in kickboxing range, not sure if it's the kickboxing setting he struggles with or if he lacks in the hand department. Jomthong Chuwattana had high level boxing skills but struggled in kickboxing against Qiu Jianliang, Marat Grigorian and Superbon.

To me it seems like you're the one using that logic to make generalizations.

If a thai has superior hands to a "farang" (which happens quite often) i won't use that to make a generalizations.

I think Ramon Dekkers is the most typical example people use to create this myth that thais have shitty hands. In reality even Dekkers himself got outboxed by thais. For instance check Dekkers vs Sangtiennoi I and II (Dekkers lost two and won their third fight).

Its a generalization. Like I said already of course there's Thais with good hands. Yes things can be generalized such as thais are the best in the world at muay thai. Not true! Because this one time this one farang beat a thai!!!! <Lmaoo>

Look, anyone who fights muay thai can kick, knee, elbow, and punch!! Its not like they can't punch. Even though the fighter can punch, people tend to center their style of fighting around something. Dieselnoi centered his fighting style around knees. Amazingly enough he knows how to punch. Sam A style is centered around kicks. Generally speaking thais tend to be stronger in the kicking and clinch game than foreigners. Foreigners tend to be centered more around their hands. Take a look at Damien Trainor big puncher. Dzhabar askerov is another

Knowing Don Mattingly's batting average doesn't make you good at baseball....playing baseball does. I never concerned myself with following fighters and knowing details about them. I spent my time learning how to improve. It's great that you know chansopok beat ritnachai.... I don't know their names, but I'll still watch the fight, learn what I can from it, and move on.

I don't think Sam A would outbox haggerty if they were the same size. Haggerty has tricky style. Sam a would break him down with his well timed kicks

You can find videos of sam a finishing guy's with his hands, take a look at his fight against lasiri. Yup, he punched him and won. But he didn't beat him with his hands. He beat him with his kicks and finished him off with his hands. There's a difference.

 

[Kanka]

Its a generalization

It's a generalization that lacks evidence or arguments to support it. Possibly inaccurate.

 

[shincheckin]

It's a generalization that lacks evidence or arguments to support it. Possibly inaccurate.

Fair enough. Times have also changed. I'm much older than you and grew up watching golden era muay thai. Watch the old fights, and you will see many fights with heavy emphasis on kicks and clinch rather than hands. The sport as a whole is continuing to improve and evolve. You can even see some mma influence into some of the stuff that thais are doing now. Super man punches or what not...not true because superman punch is a old school move done since muay boran days.

I'll openly admit you know many more active fighters and much more about them than I do. I'll also openly admit I'm a better fighter than you.

 

[aerius]

Its a generalization. Sure if I do some searching I could provide you examples of thais whos hands are not the greatest. Take Sam A for example, not the best at boxing, his style of fighting is centered around his big kicks. Compare his style of fighting to a guy like gabriel varga, or haggerty, or anyone else with good hands you can think of. Anyways, generally speaking foreigners tend to have better hands, while the thais tend to be better in the kicking and clinch game. im sure you know this already. of course theres thais with good hands, just like theres foreigners with good kicks or what not. im really not too big on following fighters to seriously like a baseball fan able to a guys batting average or what not. I train, watch, study, learn, learn by watching fights, but dont follow specific fighters very closely.

in before: not true cause this one time this one guy

Sam-A? Really? I don't think you've seen very much of his career. Like Yodsanklai, he's best known for his left kick but both of them did a lot of damage with punches & elbows. Sam-A had much better hands and boxing skills than most people think. Haggerty is lucky that he got a washed up 35 year old Sam-A, the 25 year old version would've wrecked him at least as badly as Rodtang just did.



Now, if you said foreigners generally throw punches more often and have a more boxing centred style you'd be correct. But just because they punch more doesn't mean they're better punchers.

 

[Kanka]

Take a look at Damien Trainor big puncher

Who did he outbox? I can think of plenty of thais with superior hands.

Dzhabar askerov is

Good fighter but many thais would outbox him.

Look, anyone who fights muay thai can kick, knee, elbow, and punch!! Its not like they can't punch. Even though the fighter can punch, people tend to center their style of fighting around something

I have not said anything that contradicts this. I'm asking for arguments that support your claim about thais lacking in the hands department.

Knowing Don Mattingly's batting average doesn't make you good at baseball....playing baseball does. I never concerned myself with following fighters and knowing details about them. I spent my time learning how to improve.

I'm sure you do. I'm not arguing about who is better lol. If you so beat Saenchai and Petchmorrakot i would still challenge claims that lack arguments or evidence to support it.

I don't think Sam A would outbox haggerty if they were the same size. Haggerty has tricky style. Sam a would break him down with his well timed kicks

I was talking about a boxing setting (ie no kicks or knees). From what i've seen Sam-A would be the favourite to win. That's just my opinion though, not the most relevant comment.

You can find videos of sam a finishing guy's with his hands, take a look at his fight against lasiri. Yup, he punched him and won. But he didn't beat him with his hands. He beat him with his kicks and finished him off with his hands. There's a difference.

I wouldn't deduct that he lacks in the hands department just because he scored mostly with kicks.

 

[shincheckin]

Your free to your opinion and I'm free to mine have a good one fellas.

 

[Kanka]

I'll openly admit you know many more active fighters and much more about them than I do. I'll also openly admit I'm a better fighter than you.

Possibly, but i'm not attacking you as a person, i'm rebutting a statement i disagree with. Especially since i see similsr statements go unchallenged very frequently on social media.

Your free to your opinion and I'm free to mine have a good one fellas.

Well that's what a forum is for right

 

[shincheckin]

Now, if you said foreigners generally throw punches more often and have a more boxing centred style you'd be correct. But just because they punch more doesn't mean they're better punchers.

I did say that.

Sam A style is centered around kicks. Generally speaking thais tend to be stronger in the kicking and clinch game than foreigners. Foreigners tend to be centered more around their hands.

 

[AndyMaBobs]

Sam-A? Really? I don't think you've seen very much of his career. Like Yodsanklai, he's best known for his left kick but both of them did a lot of damage with punches & elbows. Sam-A had much better hands and boxing skills than most people think. Haggerty is lucky that he got a washed up 35 year old Sam-A, the 25 year old version would've wrecked him at least as badly as Rodtang just did.



Now, if you said foreigners generally throw punches more often and have a more boxing centred style you'd be correct. But just because they punch more doesn't mean they're better punchers.

This.

Boxing =/= punching.

You'll find karateka with good hands, but you don't call them boxers. Thai style muay thai has more in common with boxing than western styles of muay thai and kickboxing do.

 

[Kanka]

Well you could also ask who the fighters are that would be superior to thais in the hands department? In western boxing, it's quite clear that the thais have been more succesful.

In KB and Muay Thai... well let's look at some results.

Tenshin, Petrosyan, Qiu Jian Liang, Takeru and possibly Yoshiki Takei are the ones that come to mind as fighters who would give trouble to many thais with their punches. That's four fighters and they mostly fight in kickboxing. In Muay Thai i don't know whether their hands department would work aswell. Jia Aoqi also TKO'd Tawanchai and beat Petchtanong mostly with punches, which is quite impressive (though i disagree with the decision). Marat Grigorian is really good (KO'd superbon) but still got outboxed by Sittichai. Petrosyan arguably got outboxed by Petchmorrakot in their second fight.

Elias Ennachi and Elias Mahmoudi looked good against Petchdam, but i wouldn't conclude that they're superior to thais based on those two fights.

Most other Muay Thai guys like Liam Harrison, Haggerty, Azize Hlali, Genji Umeno, Fabio Pinca, Sergey Kulyaba, Youssef Boughanem, Ongjen Topic etc have not proven to have superior hands to thais. As usual, in the fight game they won some, lost some. For instance, Genji Umeno KO'd Muangthai but got KO'd by Kulabdam.

 

[SandisLL]

Especially since i see similsr statements go unchallenged very frequently on social media.

Well, there not nationaltiy is discussed but MT.
If they do train for pure boxing, of course it is different question and boxer's origin doesn't have any impact on his skills.
Only talent and cocah, tutors, hard work etc plus conditioning etc.
I for example didn't defended universal superiority ideas about some linear TMA style because I had exp what is feeling to offer it to a kick boxer's apprentice that did had cross training in pure boxing. Sorry, yes, he wasn't able to headkick me or land uppercut or straight but hooks and half hooks…… wow…. If he wished, he easily was able to handle out very hard concussion.
Ok, later I was more realistic with KB guys of course.
Yes, karateka isn't a boxer….

Thai style muay thai has more in common with boxing than western styles of muay thai and kickboxing do.

About MT in Europe, I think it depends form coach/ trainers.
Some just know rules and are able to use elbows and knees, foot sweeps and clinch game due to another experience.
This doesn't mean that they even claim that they know MT, just compete under rules.
& Western kick boxing : in europe when becomed more popular, there plenty of TMA guys and boxers turned in KB guys.
Later in end of 90 ies some traditions developed but it depends.
Some gyms used also additional boxing coach etc.
# rules for ammies then were Low Kick, Full Contact, K-1 and some other stuff too, f.e Kick Light.
& Also there at least ammies had / have enough guys that competed in am KB and also in am boxing.
For example not rarity for Baltics or NL. BTW you may ask about this Lithuanian gentleman, instructor in your gym if I correctly understood from your post in another thread.
Greece and Cyprus too had guys with not bad hands.
Another way to check it is deep digging in amateur tournaments results tables, for example National championship and compare name/surname/year/ place in tournament results. At least medalists lists. Another kind of tournaments : regional tournaments, not rarerly international cups esp these between National and Continental level.
----

One example cos then I was more connected with KB ammies than boxing ammies and know a bit euopean ammy KB kitchen.
# Some big boxing events undercards had some guys with amateur credentials higher in ammy KB than they had in ammy boxing. Yes, now they are pro boxers.
Old cards I don't have time to dig in, will not type form memory.

 

[SandisLL]

am KB then more used training 50% punches 50% kicks balance.
For MT I don't know to tell.

 

[rmongler]

I can see why i come across that way but i'm merely trying to make a logical argument based on what you wrote.

At the highest level you have guys that (relatively speaking) have bad hands, bad knees and bad kicks. I haven't seen Kulabdam and Rodgang use their knees effectively for instance, but i'm not going to say thais have shitty knees.

What about all the thais that proved to have superior hands to their western opponents? Does it mean thais in general have better hands? Based on the information i have, i can't really draw a conclusion. But if i did, i'd at least have some examples or a logical argument.

What i can say pretty confidently is that:

The average westerner gym focuses more on punches, compared to thai gyms in general. Japanese and Chinese aswell it seems like, although they have different approaches than westerner fighters.

This does not necessarily mean they'll be better though, many still got outboxed by thais.

For instance:
Dekkers by Sangtiennoi
Liam Harrison by Rodlek
Haggerty by Rodtang

Some top thais are more clinch based, and have not developed the skills to fight in a ruleset where clinching isn't allowed. But they're one out of many different styles within Thailand, wouldn't generalize based on those. Muay thai fighters from thailand won way more boxing awards than fighters in western muay thai and kickboxing. Probably more than MMA aswell.

Maybe it could be true that the variance in boxing skills is higher among thai fighters. Ie many with good boxing skills, aswell as many with not so good boxing skills, since some gyms don't focus so much on boxing.

The one sure thing i've picked up from all this is that you seem very sensitive to insinuations that thai fighters, broadly construed, might not have as good hands, in a relative sense, as they might other tools. Or perhaps more generally to insinuations that thai fighters, broadly construed, might not be 100%, at anything, in any case? 'Sure X might not train Y as much as Z but also dont think that this might have any meaningful consequences.' Lets have that cake and eat it, too.

It all reminds me of conversations that were common in the 00's and early 10's with bjj purists; 'sure i might not train takedowns, but i could take people down if i wanted too anyways', but you know, that's not how it works. Everything in the fight game is about trade-offs; time you spend on one thing, is time you don't have to spend on anything else.